[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Featuring Crawford at the point, Steph as the 2G.
Author Thread
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
11/10/2007  12:19 PM
I really dislike this. I don't understand why Jamal Crawford has been groomed to be the primary ball handler and decision maker. I don't understand why Stephon Marbury has been stripped down into a role playing two guard.

It has destroyed our back court.

On the one hand we are relying heavily on a turnover prone - poor decision maker - poor shot taker to run our offense.

On the other hand you can see the profound mental effect it has had on Marbury. He is downright disinterested at times. He is much more inefficient. He's lost at times.


It's such a poor coaching decision by Isiah. I don't know why Crawford has been groomed to be the point guard but he has. One can speculate that Isiah is seeking an in-house replacement for Stephon and maybe we won't see much more of Steph in a Knick uniform.

If it's not that then I don't know what it is.

When you put the team's fortunes on a highly inconsistent player then it is no secret your outcome will be just as inconsistent.


Does anyone understand what Isiah is doing here?

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

11/10/2007  12:33 PM
I didn't see last nights game but when did this role shift occur? from what I read Marbury was burned all night by Nelson, so did they switch on O and D?

Anyway, a couple of things to consider are that Crawford has better lateral movement to stay in front of quicker players (in theory)

Crawford is better at feeding the post, and since we are a post oriented club that is significant.

Marbury's health is questionable for the duration of the season.

Crawford's own shot selection is improved by putting him at the point. He rarely chucks from long when playing the 1.

Marbury's former best shot, the penetration to layup, seems to be waning fast, and his new best shot might be the mid-range jumper. He seems to take more of them when playing the 2.
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
11/10/2007  12:34 PM
I agree with you Cosmic. The trouble is that Crawford is a dribbling-based 2 guard. They both need to dribble to play their games effectively. This is one of the reasons I espouse trading one or the other, but more likely Crawford.

The Knicks could use Artest, but I don't think just Crawford will get him. The Knicks can also use a true spot up and or catch and shoot player. Even Randolph dribbles before he shoots!

If the Knicks address these 2 needs: A wing defensive player and a real "outside shooter" they are a pretty good team.

Who's out there? Maybe Wally and Artest. Both are big risks.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Anji
Posts: 25523
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 4/14/2006
Member: #1122
USA
11/10/2007  12:36 PM
Yeah, phasing out dudberry. Just think of how much you hate JC and isiah wants him to have the ball....... that's how bad dudeberry is at being the point.

And to be fare, Marbury at th 2guard looks way better right now then he did at the point at this time last year.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
11/10/2007  12:55 PM
Steph is still playing the Point, they just make the switch to help him conserve some energy. You try guarding Jameer Nelson with no help! basically the knicks just don't have a very mobile and quick defense when you have Zach, Curry in there and then you want Steph at this point in his career to be a shutdown PG? That's just not gonna happen. The way that msot teams are able to do it is by having a good level of defenders at every position and then they play with cohesion on D. It's absolutely necessary to have a good help defense, but not to overcommit.

NO ONE ever stepped over to help deny Jameer's initial move to penetrate and NO ONE reacted quickly enough to deter his layups. When this team can play with more awareness of what is happening with the ball then we'll see some improvement. As it is, guys tend to lock in on their man and totally ignore the man with the ball. You just can't play like that. Then to make it worse there was a total breakdown and they left Howard all alone or one of the shooters wide open. It's something they can fix, but will they is the question.

With regard to Jamal imparticular. If he's not scoring a lot, then we're in trouble, cuz he's not really going to stop anyone and he makes a poor partner defensively with Steph. This is where I think we could use Mardy. It has be him cuz we don't have another defensive guard who can run the offense as well as him. I'd like to see him get some minutes to see if he can help to give us the defensive presence we need. Having him or Jared eventually be the 9th man in games is an inevitable move.
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

11/10/2007  1:02 PM
Having not seen the game, why didn't Nate get the assignment on Nelson?

To borrow the phrase from Nixluva, "at this point in his career" why are we still reliant on Marbury for ill-suited roles?

[Edited by - blueseats on 11-10-2007 1:03 PM]
Anji
Posts: 25523
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 4/14/2006
Member: #1122
USA
11/10/2007  1:10 PM
And really the hyperbole is really being laid on thick Cosmic, eh???

It has destroyed our back court.
The Back Court is averaging 37 points and 13 assist per game this year
compared to 32 points and 9 assist(not even going to do Q's numbers)

The team is averaging 15 turnovers compared to 17 last season

The Team is averaging 20 assists compared to 18 last season

On the other hand you can see the profound mental effect it has had on Marbury. He is downright disinterested at times. He is much more inefficient. He's lost at times.
Marbury looked more disinterested at the point then he does now.

Marbury scored 20 plus points once in his first 20 games, he has already done it once

Marbury scored 15 plus plus 7 times in his first 20 games, he has done it twice in four games this season

Marbury Got 7 or more assist three times in his first 20 games, he already has 7 assists in three games


I a little heavy on the I hate JC sauce.......... we know, know need to spice it up with a Bam, Emeril

[Edited by - Anji on 11-10-2007 1:17 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Anji
Posts: 25523
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 4/14/2006
Member: #1122
USA
11/10/2007  1:13 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Having not seen the game, why didn't Nate get the assignment on Nelson?

To borrow the phrase from Nixluva, "at this point in his career" why are we still reliant on Marbury for ill-suited roles?

[Edited by - blueseats on 11-10-2007 1:03 PM]

His Hammy is still brothering him. I think Jones should have played more.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
11/10/2007  1:17 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Having not seen the game, why didn't Nate get the assignment on Nelson?

To borrow the phrase from Nixluva, "at this point in his career" why are we still reliant on Marbury for ill-suited roles?

[Edited by - blueseats on 11-10-2007 1:03 PM]

Nate is hurt.
He was riding the bicycle more that playing the game
Isiah trying to pick his poison.
It's a joke - the team under the eye of one of the greatest guards of all time have such a garbage at this position.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

11/10/2007  1:19 PM
Ah, forgot about the hammy, thanks.
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
11/10/2007  1:21 PM
Posted by Anji:

And really the hyperbole is really being laid on thick Cosmic, eh???

It has destroyed our back court.
The Back Court is averaging 37 points and 13 assist per game this year
compared to 32 points and 9 assist(not even going to do Q's numbers)

The team is averaging 15 turnovers compared to 17 last season

The Team is averaging 20 assists compared to 18 last season

Marbury scored 20 plus points once in his first 20 games, he has already done it once

Marbury scored 15 plus plus 7 times in his first 20 games, he has done it twice in four games this season

Marbury Got 7 or more assist three times in his first 20 games, he already has 7 assists in three games

I a little heavy on the I hate JC sauce.......... we know, know need to spice it up with a Bam, Emeril


It has destroyed it in this sense.

You have placed the reliability of the offense on a guard who is inconsistent and a poor decision maker.

You have relegated your once high scoring guard to a role he is not very good at. Marbury is not a role player and by doing so you've devalued the position he plays and the potential impact another player could have there.


My point is this: Crawford is a disaster to watch handling the point guard duties. With Marbury you can only go two ways: You either turn him loose and allow him to play his game or you move him off the team. It serves no purpose to have him moping around as a shell of his former self. It is detrimental to the team success.
Posted by BlueSeats:

Having not seen the game, why didn't Nate get the assignment on Nelson?

To borrow the phrase from Nixluva, "at this point in his career" why are we still reliant on Marbury for ill-suited roles?

[Edited by - blueseats on 11-10-2007 1:03 PM]

I think Nate's hamstring is still an issue. He just doesn't look right out there.



As to when this role switch took place it started last season. I agree with Anji that it appears Marbury is being phased out. Possibly to ensure that when he is finally moved or released that it does not have a huge impact on the team. However I'm not so sure this is the wisest course of action in handing Jamal the primary ball handling duties and decision making while devaluing the position Marbury plays.

I just don't like what I'm seeing from it.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

11/10/2007  1:32 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

As to when this role switch took place it started last season. I agree with Anji that it appears Marbury is being phased out. Possibly to ensure that when he is finally moved or released that it does not have a huge impact on the team. However I'm not so sure this is the wisest course of action in handing Jamal the primary ball handling duties and decision making while devaluing the position Marbury plays.

I just don't like what I'm seeing from it.

Between Nate, Jamal, and Steph we have three combo guards, none of which are best suited to either position. Any combination is a compromise at best.

The best thing for this team will be for Marbury to be gone completely. The vacuum at the point and leadership positions, without Marbury's relationship to Isiah and his mercurial and confounding demeanor looming from the sidelines will be far more productive than destructive.

When LB was here he badly wanted guys in the Earl Watson, Steven Blake type roles for the point, and we'd have been well served by that. In addition, LB would have been able to mold them into a Mo Cheeks type player who understood the game. Instead Isiah gave him Stevie Franchise, yet another ill-suited combo guy.

Sadly, I don't think Isiah is the right GM or coach to straighten out the PG situation here.

Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
11/10/2007  1:34 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Steph is still playing the Point, they just make the switch to help him conserve some energy. You try guarding Jameer Nelson with no help! basically the knicks just don't have a very mobile and quick defense when you have Zach, Curry in there and then you want Steph at this point in his career to be a shutdown PG? That's just not gonna happen. The way that msot teams are able to do it is by having a good level of defenders at every position and then they play with cohesion on D. It's absolutely necessary to have a good help defense, but not to overcommit.

NO ONE ever stepped over to help deny Jameer's initial move to penetrate and NO ONE reacted quickly enough to deter his layups. When this team can play with more awareness of what is happening with the ball then we'll see some improvement. As it is, guys tend to lock in on their man and totally ignore the man with the ball. You just can't play like that. Then to make it worse there was a total breakdown and they left Howard all alone or one of the shooters wide open. It's something they can fix, but will they is the question.

With regard to Jamal imparticular. If he's not scoring a lot, then we're in trouble, cuz he's not really going to stop anyone and he makes a poor partner defensively with Steph. This is where I think we could use Mardy. It has be him cuz we don't have another defensive guard who can run the offense as well as him. I'd like to see him get some minutes to see if he can help to give us the defensive presence we need. Having him or Jared eventually be the 9th man in games is an inevitable move.

I don't know about conserving him I don't think that's in anyones best interests. If we are conserving him then where are the stretches of time where he's the primary decision maker and giving us a glimpse of Starbury the unstoppable scoring guard? As to being a shut down PG no I don't expect that and it's partially my point: He's made the effort to change but in doing so has become a lifeless inefficient player. After two+ seasons of coaches trying to turn him into a role player you'd think someone would notice it's not working and it's been detrimental to the potential success of the team.

As to defense on Jameer initially I see blaming Marbury for outright giving up on each play - slowing down and not pursuing it - not yelling to teammates for help. I also don't understand why after a few times Isiah did not (or could not) hammer the idea of a big recognizing the play as it unfolds and stepping into Jameer's path. This seemed like a collapse of judgement of multiple people.

Who could have possibly guarded Jameer if they were to be left alone to do so time and again without help? Nate's too gimpy still, Mardy's knee is not all the way there I'd suspect, Crawford can't, Marbury couldn't so I think that leaves Fred Jones? Not that I'd want an 11 man rotation but there are times you need to try something different.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
SupremeCommander
Posts: 34121
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

11/10/2007  2:10 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

I really dislike this. I don't understand why Jamal Crawford has been groomed to be the primary ball handler and decision maker. I don't understand why Stephon Marbury has been stripped down into a role playing two guard.

It has destroyed our back court.

On the one hand we are relying heavily on a turnover prone - poor decision maker - poor shot taker to run our offense.

On the other hand you can see the profound mental effect it has had on Marbury. He is downright disinterested at times. He is much more inefficient. He's lost at times.


It's such a poor coaching decision by Isiah. I don't know why Crawford has been groomed to be the point guard but he has. One can speculate that Isiah is seeking an in-house replacement for Stephon and maybe we won't see much more of Steph in a Knick uniform.

If it's not that then I don't know what it is.

When you put the team's fortunes on a highly inconsistent player then it is no secret your outcome will be just as inconsistent.


Does anyone understand what Isiah is doing here?

Yes, I understand what Isiah is doing here. Crawford's efficiency is maximized when the offense flows through him. He shoots a reasonable amount, instead of being a high-volume chucker. You make it sound like Crawford isn't a playmaker... that's not true. The one thing he does is distribute. Now, it will not be a seamless transition if Isiah is committed to go this route, instead of it just being a one-game deviation. I mean, he's been in the leage a while as an off-guard.

But when you think about it, isn't this what we want from outr backcourt? Didn't we want our PG to distribute and our SG to attack the rim?
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
11/11/2007  5:26 AM
running Marbury at the point has netted this team just about zero success in past seasons... it's time to try a new formula cuz the old formula sure as heck ain't workin'.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
11/11/2007  10:30 AM
I see what some are saying about Crawford being more efficient when featured. The problem I have is that even at his most efficient he's not very good and I don't think you can have long term success by allowing him to be the primary orchestrator.


That said, I do notice a trend in everyone's opinions which I share as well: Something must change.

It would appear the change is Marbury being phased out more and more but it should be done sooner not later so we can actually plug in a new player in the back court and grow as a team. Most seem to support this.

Maybe a Mardy-Crawford back court would be something worth exploring down the road.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
11/12/2007  10:47 AM
This is why I would have drafted Marcus instead of Renaldo. Not because Marcus is a sure fire starting PG but because it is clear that we do not have one. With our two big guys why are we not gathering all of our resources to find a PG that can grow with the big guys. Instead we are making moves for more scorers that can't play D with the false notion that the pretty names can get us to a title. IT's mind boggling to me.
I just hope that people will like me
BasketballJones
Posts: 31973
Alba Posts: 19
Joined: 7/16/2002
Member: #290
USA
11/12/2007  11:06 AM
PGs are overrated. PG, Shmee Ghee.
https:// It's not so hard.
Featuring Crawford at the point, Steph as the 2G.

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy