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The Anatomy Of The New York Roster
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nixluva
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11/9/2007  1:52 PM
I don't know if anyone else posted this, but I thought it was a good synopsis of Isiahs moves:
http://knicks.realgm.com/articles/10/20071108/the_anatomy_of_the_new_york_roster/

It has taken nearly four years, but may Isiah finally have it?

“This is probably the most fun I’ve had in a long time in a basketball game,” said Eddy Curry following the Knicks’ win on Tuesday versus Denver in a game that had the

energy and intensity of the playoffs.

It has been a very long and a very windy road and the road still needs roughly 40 more wins this season and we have seen similar euphoria before, but the Knicks do indeed have a roster that is a legitimate, no-spin, playoff team. Nobody believes they are a guaranteed playoff team, let alone a real Finals contender, but they are unanimously a highly talented team who should make the playoffs.

The roster Thomas inherited from Scott Layden on December 22nd, 2003 was old, expensive and severely lacking in talent.

They were 10-18 and had just gone 0-5 on a West Coast road trip.

This is what their roster looked like:

- Antonio McDyess: He has been a 20 minute-per-night player for the Pistons since 2004.

- Allan Houston: He played 50 games that and only 20 the next and hasn’t played an NBA game since, despite his comeback attempt in October.

- Keith Van Horn: He played sparingly for two more seasons and last played in Game 6 of the 2006 Finals with Dallas.

- Dikembe Mutombo: He continues to be Yao Ming’s backup, playing less than 17 minutes per game.

- Howard Eisley: Last played with the Clippers during the 2005-2006 season.

- Shandon Anderson: Last played for Miami during the 2005-2006 season.

- Charlie Ward: Last played for Houston during the 2004-2005 season.

- Kurt Thomas: He was rarely used by Phoenix and traded to Seattle during the offseason in an 'Isiah' type of deal where Sam Presti received multiple picks for taking on the salary.

- Michael Doleac: He won a ring with Miami in 2006 and was recently traded to Minnesota.

- Clarence Weatherspoon: Baby Barkley last played for Houston during the 2004-2005 season.

- Othella Harrington: Harrington is currently on Charlotte's roster after two seasons in Chicago.

How did Isiah turn this roster into the one we see today?

It surely wasn’t by getting under the cap – only Jerome James, Jared Jeffries and Randolph Morris were signed via free agency.

It wasn’t by playing poorly (aka: lottery tank job) and receiving high draft picks. Sure, they have played poorly and owned the second overall pick in 2006 and the ninth overall in 2007, but those went to Chicago.

Isiah has made just two draft picks using the Knicks’ own selections (Channing Frye and Trevor Ariza) and neither player is on their roster.

The Knicks have been built by a huge series of trades, where they have taken on other club’s cap responsibilities, high-risk talent and by amassing draft picks in those trades along the way.

Here is the anatomy of the Knicks:

- Keith Van Horn and Michael Doleac are dealt to Milwaukee and became Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed.

- Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, the pick that became Kirk Snyder and another 1st rounder (most likely 2010) then became Stephon Marbury and Anfernee Hardaway.

- Frank Williams, Othella Harrington, Dikembe Mutombo and Cezary Trybanski became Jamal Crawford and Jerome Williams.

- Mohammed and Jamison Brewer are dealt to the Spurs for Malik Rose and the pick that became David Lee and the pick that became Mardy Collins.

- Kurt Thomas and Dijon Thompson became Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson.

- Tim Thomas is traded to the Bulls along with Mike Sweetney, Jermaine Jackson, the pick that became Tyrus Thomas and the pick that became Joakim Noah for Eddy Curry, Antonio Davis (who months later became Jalen Rose and the pick that became Renaldo Balkman) and the pick that became Wilson Chandler.

- Penny Hardaway and Trevor Ariza became Steve Francis, who, along with Channing Frye became Zach Randolph, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau (who became Jared Jordan for a few weeks) and Demetris Nichols (who has since signed with Cleveland and was the subject of fan uproar when he was released).

- Moochie Norris, Vin Baker and the pick that became Steve Novak became Maurice Taylor, who was eventually bought out and is the only move that really didn't accomplish anything.

It has been expensive and they have been ridiculed for it by an excessively cap-conscious NBA, but rebuilding is a four-letter word in New York and with Cablevision resources on hand, it is difficult to imagine how Isiah could have done much better.
AUTOADVERT
Ira
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11/9/2007  1:57 PM
In my way of thinking, this was rebuilding. It was just done in a different way.
TheGame
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11/9/2007  2:02 PM
IT could have done some things better but he was charged with getting the team younger and competitive. He certainly accomplished the former, and this season will show if he accomplished the latter.
Trust the Process
SupremeCommander
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11/9/2007  2:12 PM
Posted by Ira:

In my way of thinking, this was rebuilding. It was just done in a different way.

Agreed. I happen to think that a traditional rebuild would have been more fruitful, however.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
newyorknewyork
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11/9/2007  2:37 PM
Ah, the difference in what winning and losing brings.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
bobs3304
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11/9/2007  4:16 PM
Anatomy of the New York Poster?

Of the New York Roaster?

Ohhhh....of the New York ROSTER.


Mostly bile.





[Edited by - bobs3304 on 09-11-2007 4:17 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
VDesai
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11/9/2007  4:35 PM
Thing is, if there was a little more patience, the whole roster could've been turned over and we might be right at the salary cap or below instead of more than twice the salary cap. Would've still amassed a lot of young talent through draft picks with the right moves. Things would be a bit more flexible and we'd be in a better position to acquire players with fewer flaws.

The one thing having big salaries and a lot of talented players does put us in a position for is to acquire a guy like Kobe. We are one of the few teams that could match that salary and provide good young talent in return.
MS
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11/9/2007  4:43 PM
You look at the roster in three areas

1. Do we have the ability to sign free agents.............................NO
2. Are we in a position to compete for a championship anytime soon........NO
3. Can we trade for a piece that will help us win a championship..........NO

He was in a tough position yes but that doesn't excuse the Rose deal, the Francis Move, the JJ1 & 2 signings, etc.
nixluva
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11/9/2007  4:48 PM
I don't totally agree that in the last 3 drafts we could've ended up with a better roster. You have to assume the best case scenario in each draft and that rarely happens.

In 2003-04 Dolan wasn't looking for a tank job. we had # 16, but ended up with Ariza
In 2004-05 we got Frye, Lee, Nate, Curry & Q (A Bogut, M Williams, D Williams, C Paul & R Felton)
In 2005-06 we got Balkman, Mardy, Jared (A Bargnani, L Aldridge, A Morrison, T Thomas & S Williams)
in 2006-07 we got Zach, Chandler & Jones (Oden, Durant, Horford, Conley, J Green & Yi)

In the end this team has a very strong frontcourt in terms of scoring and rebounding. I think we are designed to do well in the playoffs with this team. People complain about how bad we've done W/L wise, but if you're gonna add a lot of younger players, many of which thru the draft don't you expect some time will be needed to develop them? I think we saw some positive growth last year and I think this year the team is much more ready to get it done and it's only natural that this would happen.
arkrud
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11/9/2007  4:54 PM
Posted by MS:

You look at the roster in three areas

1. Do we have the ability to sign free agents.............................NO
2. Are we in a position to compete for a championship anytime soon........NO
3. Can we trade for a piece that will help us win a championship..........NO

He was in a tough position yes but that doesn't excuse the Rose deal, the Francis Move, the JJ1 & 2 signings, etc.

4. Do we have a team which can play 50/50 and make a drama of making/not making playoffs.....YES


Don't take me wrong.... The mission IS accomplished.


[Edited by - arkrud on 11-09-2007 4:56 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
CrushAlot
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11/9/2007  6:13 PM
You are right that this roster is alot better. However, it is important to remember that until Isiah became coach he managed the team like it was a fantasy team. Players were acquired and traded with what appeared to be no plan at all. The only trades that I recall being made since Isiah became coach are the Randolph trade and the trades that gave away two future second round picks. In addition your analysis does not take into account the salary cap nightmare that Thomas created. I think he has improved the team but he also has had total control for almost four years. I would not start patting him on the back just yet.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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11/9/2007  7:08 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

You are right that this roster is alot better. However, it is important to remember that until Isiah became coach he managed the team like it was a fantasy team. Players were acquired and traded with what appeared to be no plan at all. The only trades that I recall being made since Isiah became coach are the Randolph trade and the trades that gave away two future second round picks. In addition your analysis does not take into account the salary cap nightmare that Thomas created. I think he has improved the team but he also has had total control for almost four years. I would not start patting him on the back just yet.

Isiah clearly was still in the process of building the team. Was he supposed to stop doing that at some point even tho we clearly had need of further improvement. The fantasy moves as you put it were part of the process. He said that he looks to acquire assets in addition to talent he wishes to keep. It's one of the best ways to make deals. Now some may argue with that, but in the end how can you complain about the results of his many moves?

As for the salary cap, let's just remember that as nice as it would've been to be under the cap, that's not the main goal. The main goal is to put together a winning team. Yeah he had a chance to set this team up to get under, but why do that instead of making a move that would improve the team and at the same time not make the team older? In the end the cap will not be a huge problem as we close out next season. That is if Isiah doesn't find a player we need at that point in time. Again the point isn't to get under the cap. The point is to win and make a team that can get to the finals. Screw the cap.

I thought it would be a good option to look to get under the cap, but not at the risk of letting a good opportunity to win slip away. Exactly who are we targeting with this supposed cap space? You see the whole point of cap space is to be able to sign a player that can help you win. Well I don't see how not having cap space has really hurt us that much. The Bulls used their cap space on Ben Wallace and he's not the missing piece to a title. In most cases the big talent is traded for rather than signed out right.

Our cap situation for the next few years:

88.8 mil This yr
90.9 mil 2008-09
58.2 mil 2009-10
28.2 mil 2010-11




CrushAlot
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11/9/2007  10:30 PM
He stopped acquiring 'assets' when he had to coach the team and needed chemistry and players to fill a role. GMs with a vision are aware of that long before they get two hall of fame coaches fired. 2-2 does not equal the savior to the franchise. He has had along tenure here in NBA terms and it is hard to even say he has achieved mediocrity.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
arkrud
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11/9/2007  11:49 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by CrushAlot:

You are right that this roster is alot better. However, it is important to remember that until Isiah became coach he managed the team like it was a fantasy team. Players were acquired and traded with what appeared to be no plan at all. The only trades that I recall being made since Isiah became coach are the Randolph trade and the trades that gave away two future second round picks. In addition your analysis does not take into account the salary cap nightmare that Thomas created. I think he has improved the team but he also has had total control for almost four years. I would not start patting him on the back just yet.

Isiah clearly was still in the process of building the team. Was he supposed to stop doing that at some point even tho we clearly had need of further improvement. The fantasy moves as you put it were part of the process. He said that he looks to acquire assets in addition to talent he wishes to keep. It's one of the best ways to make deals. Now some may argue with that, but in the end how can you complain about the results of his many moves?

As for the salary cap, let's just remember that as nice as it would've been to be under the cap, that's not the main goal. The main goal is to put together a winning team. Yeah he had a chance to set this team up to get under, but why do that instead of making a move that would improve the team and at the same time not make the team older? In the end the cap will not be a huge problem as we close out next season. That is if Isiah doesn't find a player we need at that point in time. Again the point isn't to get under the cap. The point is to win and make a team that can get to the finals. Screw the cap.

I thought it would be a good option to look to get under the cap, but not at the risk of letting a good opportunity to win slip away. Exactly who are we targeting with this supposed cap space? You see the whole point of cap space is to be able to sign a player that can help you win. Well I don't see how not having cap space has really hurt us that much. The Bulls used their cap space on Ben Wallace and he's not the missing piece to a title. In most cases the big talent is traded for rather than signed out right.

Our cap situation for the next few years:

88.8 mil This yr
90.9 mil 2008-09
58.2 mil 2009-10
28.2 mil 2010-11

This accounting... smells fishy...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BasketballJones
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11/10/2007  12:00 AM
Posted by arkrud:


This accounting... smells fishy...

More jokes at poor papabear's expense?

https:// It's not so hard.
bobs3304
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11/10/2007  12:04 AM
Anatomy of the Knicks?


Misterearl wanted to know whyI don't like Zach Randolph. I think this post by AN ACTUAL EURO PLAYER sums it up:

TheTheif/RealGM
I hate Zach, but he has his skills...he's just a huge baby, an antoine walker clone minus the 3 game, plus the rebound game...so he's still got value


FYI, thetheif was invited to Hornets camp...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
4949
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11/10/2007  12:04 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by arkrud:


This accounting... smells fishy...

More jokes at poor papabear's expense?


That's a funny dude man.
I'll never trust this' team again.
The Anatomy Of The New York Roster

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