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Plus/Minus stats are worthless!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Anji
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11/3/2007  2:59 PM
Knicks leaders plus/minus from last night.

Qrich +11
Nate +5
Curry +2
Zach -3
Balk -4
Jcraw -6
Jones -6
Marbury -8
Dlee -11

Don't ever quote Plus/Minus stats again............
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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11/3/2007  3:11 PM
At the very least, you need a large sample to make any meaningful conclusions. Even then, they're not an ideal stat, as Tomverve wrote about a few months ago.
Ira
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11/3/2007  3:45 PM
There's no such thing as an ideal stat. For one game, they are worthless. But over time, they're pretty useful.
bobs3304
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11/3/2007  3:49 PM
QRich played terrible last night.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
fishmike
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11/4/2007  12:36 PM
+/- stats are some of the best to measure a players value and impact on the floor, but as Bonn said you need a large sampling. After one game all stats are off... unless you believe a guy that hits a 3 run homer opening day is going to have 162 homers and 486 RBIs. Is that what you believe anji?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
JohnWallace44
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11/4/2007  12:43 PM
Well, actually Jones and Marbs have bad numbers and that's what it looked like in the game. Plus Lee still doesn't look right, neither does Balk.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Anji
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11/4/2007  12:52 PM
Posted by fishmike:

+/- stats are some of the best to measure a players value and impact on the floor, but as Bonn said you need a large sampling. After one game all stats are off... unless you believe a guy that hits a 3 run homer opening day is going to have 162 homers and 486 RBIs. Is that what you believe anji?

Is Q game from last night compared to the batter that hit the 3 home runs or the pitcher that gave up three home runs???? It is like the pitcher that gave up three home runs having some stat say he did great. Worthless, that stat would be utterly worthless.



[Edited by - Anji on 11-04-2007 12:53 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
arkrud
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11/4/2007  12:57 PM
One game is not enough to use +/- stats
However they are reflecting not only offense but also defense.
Q was playing LeBron better that anybody on the Knicks and was running at 3-point shooters.
When he was off leBron and booby went nuts.
Lee was forced to defend big Z and LeBron at times. Obviously he cannot do this. 21 min is not enough for Lee to get + on offense also.
Nate +5 is right on point. Balk, craw, Jones, marbs are right on -4-8 range - they all suck in this game.
Eddy and Zach get their offensive + overwritten with defensive minus. Zack get more negative because he played more minutes that Eddy.
All in all not so far away from the reality. Of course if you think defense has some value? Is it?








[Edited by - arkrud on 11-04-2007 1:00 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 11-04-2007 1:01 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Anji
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11/4/2007  12:58 PM
And the point is if a stat that can be that wrong about who actually had an impact in last nights game, imagine what it does over a course of the season. My eyes tell me who is impacting the game much better then this.

Worthless........
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Anji
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11/4/2007  1:00 PM
Posted by arkrud:

One game is not enough to use +/- stats
However they are reflecting not only offense but also defense.
Q was playing LeBron better that anybody on the Knicks and was running at 3-point shooters.
When he was off leBron and booby went nuts.
Lee was forced to defend big Z and LeBron at times. Obviously he cannot do this. 21 min is not enough for Lee to get + on offense also.
Nate +5 is right on point. Balk, Jcraw, Jones, mard are right on -4-8 range - they all was suck in this game.
Eddy and Zach get their offensive + overwritten with defensive minus. Zack get more negative because he played more minutes that Eddy.
All in all not so far away from the reality. Of course if you think defense has some value? Is it?





I don't believe you watched the game.... I can't even comment.
The starter with the lease amount of points and had the most points scored against him was plus 11. LOL

[Edited by - Anji on 11-04-2007 1:02 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
arkrud
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11/4/2007  1:04 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by arkrud:

One game is not enough to use +/- stats
However they are reflecting not only offense but also defense.
Q was playing LeBron better that anybody on the Knicks and was running at 3-point shooters.
When he was off leBron and booby went nuts.
Lee was forced to defend big Z and LeBron at times. Obviously he cannot do this. 21 min is not enough for Lee to get + on offense also.
Nate +5 is right on point. Balk, Jcraw, Jones, mard are right on -4-8 range - they all was suck in this game.
Eddy and Zach get their offensive + overwritten with defensive minus. Zack get more negative because he played more minutes that Eddy.
All in all not so far away from the reality. Of course if you think defense has some value? Is it?





I don't believe you watched the game.... I can't even comment.

Are you looking on how much players score and this is their impact?
I am not interested in scoring at all. They can score but this is irrelevant. Scoring alone will not help to win in NBA. There are tons of players on each team which can outscore Knicks players.
I am ONLY watching defense and team play now.





[Edited by - arkrud on 11-04-2007 1:07 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Anji
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11/4/2007  1:11 PM
The starter with the lease amount of points and had the most points scored against him was plus 11.

What horrible formula in anything can take that and find a plus?????
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
arkrud
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11/4/2007  1:46 PM
Posted by Anji:

The starter with the lease amount of points and had the most points scored against him was plus 11.

What horrible formula in anything can take that and find a plus?????

This is easy.
When he was on the court we were +11.
Was it Q or just coincidence?
We will see this after 10 games will be played.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
SupremeCommander
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11/4/2007  2:25 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by Anji:

The starter with the lease amount of points and had the most points scored against him was plus 11.

What horrible formula in anything can take that and find a plus?????

This is easy.
When he was on the court we were +11.
Was it Q or just coincidence?
We will see this after 10 games will be played.

Exactly. When the sample size increases, the stat gains values.

Look at last year's end of season +/- statistics. This shows how the TEAM performed with that player on the floor. It could be that everyone else was awesome while QRich actually stunk but benefited, or it could be that QRich contributed to TEAM success. We won't be able to PREDICT success until there is a larger sample size.

That's what the stat is, a projection of future success. You tend to make those types of predictions with as much information as possible, not as little.

[Edited by - supremecommander on 11-04-2007 2:34 PM]
Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
Cosmic
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11/4/2007  6:59 PM
I will tell you guys what is a great stat site:

http://www.popcornmachine.net/GameFlows.html


Check out the Cleveland game:

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071102&game=NYKCLE

It will take you a bit to get used to but once you do you will love checking this site for answers to a game.

Also: If you mouse-over any one of those bars on the tables/graphs: Up will pop a little info window.

Give it a try - it's a GREAT site.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
SupremeCommander
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11/4/2007  11:26 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

I will tell you guys what is a great stat site:

http://www.popcornmachine.net/GameFlows.html


Check out the Cleveland game:

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071102&game=NYKCLE

It will take you a bit to get used to but once you do you will love checking this site for answers to a game.

Also: If you mouse-over any one of those bars on the tables/graphs: Up will pop a little info window.

Give it a try - it's a GREAT site.

COSMIC!!! What's up?
Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
VDesai
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11/4/2007  11:39 PM
The reason why most people don't understand stats or think stats or stupid is because they lack a true grasp of the importance of sample size. It's why that stupid Jackie Butler PER stat from a couple of years ago is brought up again and again here in the completely wrong context.
Cosmic
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11/5/2007  3:11 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:


COSMIC!!! What's up?

Hey what's going on, SC?


Guys, keep on checking out the game flows, it's a very good tool to use to analyze games.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071104&game=MINNYK

That's the Minny game. Remember to mouse-over any of the bars, or even player names, categories, anything - and up will pop a window detailing what you're hovering on.

Last night you can clearly see how we went on that huge early game run: Because we benched QRich.

In fact, all game long, the trends drastically changed depending on whether or not QRich was in the game. I don't recall him having such a negative impact but it really seems he did.



http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
subzero0
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11/5/2007  7:24 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

At the very least, you need a large sample to make any meaningful conclusions. Even then, they're not an ideal stat, as Tomverve wrote about a few months ago.

Wrong it has to be a large sample with permutations. +/- stats for a player depend on who they are out there with. If they are always on the floor when someone else is on the floor (anyone, but the same person all the time) then the stats become useless.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 11-05-2007 7:25 PM]
subzero0
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11/5/2007  7:26 PM
Posted by VDesai:

The reason why most people don't understand stats or think stats or stupid is because they lack a true grasp of the importance of sample size. It's why that stupid Jackie Butler PER stat from a couple of years ago is brought up again and again here in the completely wrong context.

I don't deny that, but what is stupid is posting the +/- stats for every game, like nba.com is doing now.
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Plus/Minus stats are worthless!!!!!!!!!!!!
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