[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Defensive stoppers and veteran leadership
Author Thread
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/19/2007  10:33 PM
Jared Jeffries, Fred Jones, Jerome James, and Malik Rose are the guys that fill out this category. Are any of them useful? I think it would be nice if at least two of these guys were gone and in my opinion one has to be Fred Jones. I am so frustrated that Isiah is playing games with Nichols and to a lesser extent Houston. I think Houston is being treated worse than Joe Torre. He has sat out the time period that it has taken other players to overcome that surgery. His shot and the fact that he is a classy guy who would be playing for an organization that currently has no class should be enough to get him on the team. He also is a link to a time when the Knicks were one of the best teams in the NBA.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
AUTOADVERT
BasketballJones
Posts: 31973
Alba Posts: 19
Joined: 7/16/2002
Member: #290
USA
10/19/2007  10:39 PM
Jones should stay. Cut one of those other guys.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-19-2007 22:41]
https:// It's not so hard.
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/19/2007  10:46 PM
You're right. It is hard to find 6'2" athletic guys who can't shoot but hustle to be your third string point or shooting guard.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
10/20/2007  11:55 AM
We was talking about Kobe
Now we talking about Jones.
Dio they have something in common?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Finestrg
Posts: 27296
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2006
Member: #1069

10/20/2007  2:42 PM
Guys I would target for a legit interior defensive/shotblocking presence would be - in this order:

(1) Andris Biedrins for Lee/Randolph Morris or Biedrins/Lasme for Lee/Morris/Balkman
(2) Hilton Armstrong for Lee or Lee/Mardy Collins
(3) Justin Williams for Randolph Morris or Morris/Jared Jordan (unless the Artest talks ever resurface, then we'll obviously have to include Lee).

All fair trades that I'm prepared to argue in favor of if anyone disagrees. Any thoughts?
Ira
Posts: 24695
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/14/2001
Member: #91
10/20/2007  5:38 PM
Balkman probably belongs in this category, too.
93BUICK
Posts: 22281
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 10/6/2006
Member: #1175
USA
10/20/2007  8:26 PM
I think Balky has a lot more potential impact than those other 4 guys
If you are still following the team and reading sites like this, there is nothing, short of your own demise, that is going to throw you off this train.
unstopaball12
Posts: 21174
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 6/7/2006
Member: #1137
Philippines
10/20/2007  11:54 PM
just cut jerome he will be out for the year and sin nichols since we have just released h20
Knicksfan
Posts: 33617
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 7/5/2004
Member: #691
USA
10/21/2007  12:51 AM
Yeah, cut James
Knicks_Fan
JrZyHuStLa
Posts: 25677
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/5/2007
Member: #1241

10/22/2007  12:53 PM
The problem is that the Knicks have no defensive stoppers, or at least to other teams' standards.

Bowen, Artest, and Raja Bell are what you call defensive stoppers. We have no one like that at all.
purple012870
Posts: 21778
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/16/2003
Member: #432
10/22/2007  1:05 PM
Lee for Hilton freakin Armstrong??? Wow
JrZyHuStLa
Posts: 25677
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/5/2007
Member: #1241

10/22/2007  3:18 PM
There's a fine line between a defensive stopper and a good interior defender. The stopper is more likely to be a player at the 2 or 3 that has the lateral quickness to guard the perimeter and limits the defensive stretch. A solid interior defender like Ben Wallace is more of a paint threat to guard against the penetration.

In summary, the Knicks need both badly.
Finestrg
Posts: 27296
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2006
Member: #1069

10/22/2007  4:50 PM
Posted by purple012870:

Lee for Hilton freakin Armstrong??? Wow

I can understand the raised eyebrows - but only to a point. Look, Lee's good, probably my favorite Knick, but I just don't see how he fits here anymore with Zach on board - and I'm talking more about his lack of size and post defense more than his overall contributions, which are many. Zach's only 25, plays the same position as Lee and is here to stay. Best possible scenario is that Lee turns into Zach Randolph someday, a guy who can put up 23/10 a night, a distinct possibility but nowhere near a sure thing. And that's obviously what the Knicks thought also otherwise why make the Randolph trade?

I want a low post defender, preferably a big-time shotblocker, that's big enough to swing between the 4 and the 5 without there being any type of mismatch in the other team's favor. Lee, for all the great things he brings to the table (his great motor, nose for the ball, excellent rebounding ability, willingness to improve his game such as the big improvement at the foul line, etc...) is barely big enough to play the 4 - he's definitely not a 5. And he's not a shotblocker.

Isiah can talk all he wants recently about not relying on a post defender such as Eddy Curry to bail guys out who get beat on the perimeter and you know what, that's a fair point. I like the fact that's he's been stressing perimeter defense during training camp and the preseason. But let's be honest, even the best defenders in this league get beat off the dribble - you need help stopping guys or intimidating guys with shotblocking and it amazes me that he sells the shotblocking element of the game that short.

If you looked up Hilton Armstrong in the dictionary you'd see the word "POTENTIAL" next to his name in bold type. As an NBA big man, the sky's the limit with this kid. I really believe that. And this is coming from a guy who watches a ton of college ball and seen him play many times for U-Conn during his 4 years there. Right off the top, he's got the height (a legit 6'11" with a huge wingspan), is an awesome weakside shotblocker and cabable rebounder. But it's the potential on the other end of the floor that excites me. The guy's quick, he can put it on the floor and actually has a jumpshot with excellent form and range out to 20='. I'll tell you this, when it's all said and done, he will be a much better pro than Channing Frye, a player who posesses similar size, tools and physical ability but nowhere near as complete a game. Go to his NBA player page and click on the link of his 16 point effort against Detroit at the Palace early on last year or the link of his game-saving block against Dwight Howard last year to get a little taste of what I'm talking about. All he needs is playing time, which he hasn't gotten yet, primarily due to the fact that the Hornets already had Chandler and West playing big minutes up front and that Byron Scott apparently favored Cedric Simmons over Armstrong during big stretches of the season last year.

Remember New Orleans thought highly enough of this young man to make him the 12th overall pick in the 2006 draft and to pull the trigger on the Cedric Simmons for David Wesley deal, which I'm guessing was mainly done to open up more playing time for Armstrong. I interested in him enough that I'd open up talks by offering Randolph Morris, Nate Robinson, etc.. but if Isiah ever really wanted to get serious about acquiring Armstrong, David Lee (the 30th pick in the 2005 draft) would have to be on the table. This kid's potential is that good and his ceiling that high, not to mention his skills and defensive prowess make him a better fit on this roster as currently constructed.
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/22/2007  5:24 PM
^^^ Zach has such value as a 23/10 guy that Portland basically dumped him for Francis and French Frye!

I wouldn't trade Lee for Zach straight up- let alone if their contracts were equal.

Zach is a rehabilitation project until he proves otherwise.
Nalod
Posts: 72440
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/22/2007  5:33 PM

Zachs 23 and 10 is way over done. Remember when we got Marbury we really were getting the "BIG O" with is 20 and 8!

Stats in the absence of chemistry is wasted.
Finestrg
Posts: 27296
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2006
Member: #1069

10/22/2007  6:01 PM
Posted by franco12:

^^^ Zach has such value as a 23/10 guy that Portland basically dumped him for Francis and French Frye!

I wouldn't trade Lee for Zach straight up- let alone if their contracts were equal.

Zach is a rehabilitation project until he proves otherwise.

Wow. Afraid I don't know what the hell to say to that. "A rehabilitation project"?!?! Are you kidding me? I guess I didn't get the memo that Zach Randolph all of a sudden turned into Vin Baker.

Portland made that deal because they (1) wanted to unload Zach's crazy contract and drastically reduce the overall payroll for the immediate future, (2) became understandably tired of Zach's constant off-the-court run-ins with the law (which is a concern of all of us now that he's a Knick - hopefully we'll have nothing to worry about), (3) wanted to give the full-time power forward spot to LaMarcus Aldridge, (4) like Channing's jumpshot and potential and (5) had an opportunity to trim down the roster by doing a 3-for-2 deal.

But don't think for one second that Portland thought they were getting equal talent back in the deal. I just gave you their complete agenda above. And, of course, they didn't forsee Oden going down. Talent-wise, the Knicks got the better deal in a land slide. And this deal makes Lee expendable. Again, Lee has good potential, a great work ethic and the hunger and dedication to improve which is impressive but he's not the player Zach Randolph is. But like I said in my previous post Lee has the potential to be someday - I just wouldn't bet my house on it.

23/10 in the western conference last year and only 25 years old = a rehibilitation project???? Man, that's funny stuff dude!
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
10/22/2007  6:16 PM
Does anyone else find the irony in Lee being shown at last year’s draft being downright giddy about Frye being traded for Zach and now it looks like he’s being put in the same situation as Frye was, which is on the perimeter, shooting jumpers, to clear space down low for Curry and now Zach.

I think Lee’s stock is going to take a major hit this year. Having to play away from the basket and guard SF’s, his rebounding numbers will go down and say goodbye to all those garbage baskets that he’s lived on. I predict 8/8 for Lee and persistent talk about how he’s going to walk after next season.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
10/22/2007  6:22 PM
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by franco12:

^^^ Zach has such value as a 23/10 guy that Portland basically dumped him for Francis and French Frye!

I wouldn't trade Lee for Zach straight up- let alone if their contracts were equal.

Zach is a rehabilitation project until he proves otherwise.

Wow. Afraid I don't know what the hell to say to that. "A rehabilitation project"?!?! Are you kidding me? I guess I didn't get the memo that Zach Randolph all of a sudden turned into Vin Baker.

Portland made that deal because they (1) wanted to unload Zach's crazy contract and drastically reduce the overall payroll for the immediate future, (2) became understandably tired of Zach's constant off-the-court run-ins with the law (which is a concern of all of us now that he's a Knick - hopefully we'll have nothing to worry about), (3) wanted to give the full-time power forward spot to LaMarcus Aldridge, (4) like Channing's jumpshot and potential and (5) had an opportunity to trim down the roster by doing a 3-for-2 deal.

But don't think for one second that Portland thought they were getting equal talent back in the deal. I just gave you their complete agenda above. And, of course, they didn't forsee Oden going down. Talent-wise, the Knicks got the better deal in a land slide. And this deal makes Lee expendable. Again, Lee has good potential, a great work ethic and the hunger and dedication to improve which is impressive but he's not the player Zach Randolph is. But like I said in my previous post Lee has the potential to be someday - I just wouldn't bet my house on it.

23/10 in the western conference last year and only 25 years old = a rehibilitation project???? Man, that's funny stuff dude!

Portland has so many young players that Zach's salary wouldn't have been a problem, certainly not for a few years at least. Paul Allen has more money than Dolan and has been willing to use it in the past.

The Blazers got rid of Zach for one reason, because he's a cancer and didn't want him to infect the impressive collection of youngsters they've put together. Youngsters with high ceilings, not just youngsters. There is a HUGE difference.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Finestrg
Posts: 27296
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2006
Member: #1069

10/22/2007  6:42 PM
Posted by Nalod:


Zachs 23 and 10 is way over done. Remember when we got Marbury we really were getting the "BIG O" with is 20 and 8!

Stats in the absence of chemistry is wasted.

Agreed. Chemistry is very important. Too many of the same pieces just thrown together in the blender can't possibly be a good thing. Zach gives us a similar, albeit superior, player to Lee. That's just a fact, whether you like Randolph not. So now what? Well, you can't deny that it gives us the leverage to now shop Lee (easily our most tradable asset) for another important piece in an area that we're lacking (a point guard maybe, a legit two-way small forward-Artest perhaps???) or a different type of big man that brings a little more size and interior defense to the table. Again, guys like Andris Biedrins and Hilton Armstrong come to mind. All I'm saying....
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

10/22/2007  8:57 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Does anyone else find the irony in Lee being shown at last year’s draft being downright giddy about Frye being traded for Zach and now it looks like he’s being put in the same situation as Frye was, which is on the perimeter, shooting jumpers, to clear space down low for Curry and now Zach.

I think Lee’s stock is going to take a major hit this year. Having to play away from the basket and guard SF’s, his rebounding numbers will go down and say goodbye to all those garbage baskets that he’s lived on. I predict 8/8 for Lee and persistent talk about how he’s going to walk after next season.


Nice assessment.

Would Lee be considered a hater if he wished for Zach or Curry to blow out a knee?
Defensive stoppers and veteran leadership

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy