Just curious what stage people are at. About 2 years ago I moved from the Yes to the No category.

No I don't. Nor do I in private. But I may consider buying a Fire Isiah t-shirt.

At least some are finally starting to see that Isiah's era is even worse than the Layden era.

[Edited by - Solace on Oct 02 2007 6:20 PM]

I have Knicks jacket that I used to wear everywhere, but I didn't wear it much last year. I sometimes break out with one of the free Knicks caps I got on the last 2 opening nights...

Posted by Solace:
At least some are finally starting to see that Isiah's era is even worse than the Layden era.[/size=1]

Whoa Solace, you really want to open up that can of worms?

OK, lets take a look:

Layden did get more wins, though that ended pretty fast after two seasons once we started depending on guys he brought in to get those wins (Anderson, Eisley, Weatherspoon, Mark Jackson, etc) Still, you have to give Specs the advantage there, although its a small one.

In terms of talent, there can be no question Isiah has done more as a GM. Expensive talent, yes, but we are still far more talented now than when Isiah took over. Advantage Isiah.

Which brings us to cap management: Personally I give both guys a pass on this because neither one sets policy on this and even the reserved Layden famously said "This team will never be under the cap". Layden signed the most infamously bad contract in the NBA (maybe all of sports), Thomas brought in a host of expensive contracts trying to amass a talented squad. We are currently about 35 million over the cap, the same as when Layden was fired. Let’s call that even.

Trades and free agent signings have been a mixed bag for either man, too complex to go into now. Judgement on Isiah’s big trade for Curry is still pending, Layden’s big trade for Antonio McDyess an unmitigated flop. Hoops hype lists Layden’s best transaction as re-signing Kurt Thomas in 2000. Isiah’s was the selection of David Lee, a pick he traded for. Advantage: Isiah.

As far as building a young core, there is simply no contest. Layden had Mike Sweetney, Milos Vujanic, Maciaj Lampe and Frank Williams to show for four years of drafting. None of those guys are still particularly active in the league, if at all. Isiah has brought in a host of young guys, some of whome are probably only scratching the surface of their potential. Big advantage to Isiah.

Public relations? I guess you have to put this one in there because of the trial. Clearly Layden's "lay low and hope nothing bad happens" approach is preferable to Isiah's, though his regime wasn't free of its own scandals.

Player relations? Has to go to Isiah. Remember when Layden was too scared of Camby to talk to him after the big fight so he sent LJ? Can you imagine Isiah Thomas doing that?

Anything else to add to the scorecard? By my count its 4-2 Isiah. Considering Layden took over a team that had just made the finals and Isiah took over a team that was 9-19 after two lottery seasons, I think you have to give Zeke the edge.

But this isn't a ringing endorsement of either man. And I still maintain that working for MSG can make any man look a fool. Isiah was just a considerably higher profile fool.

I wear my Allan Houston jersey as I'm lighting biotches up at the Y

Posted by COSSUCKS:

I dont wear it (too small) but I have a favorite Patrick Ewing shirt I wave as a game towel when we are kicking butt!

Actually, I have occasionally worn my Patrick Ewing jersey when I play basketball. I forgot about that. It's just the Knicks' players and organization of this decade that are an embarrassment.

I wore my knicks warmup last weekend , got a few comments .

Fellas saying they stink and ladies saying it looked nice on me.

go figure

I got the knicks logo tattooed on my leg

Posted by RemBee76:

Layden did get more wins, though that ended pretty fast after two seasons once we started depending on guys he brought in to get those wins (Anderson, Eisley, Weatherspoon, Mark Jackson, etc) Still, you have to give Specs the advantage there, although its a small one.

OK.

Posted by RemBee76:

In terms of talent, there can be no question Isiah has done more as a GM. Expensive talent, yes, but we are still far more talented now than when Isiah took over. Advantage Isiah.

Disagree, but this is a useless argument that gets tired, so I'm not even going to get into it.

Posted by RemBee76:

Which brings us to cap management: Personally I give both guys a pass on this because neither one sets policy on this and even the reserved Layden famously said "This team will never be under the cap". Layden signed the most infamously bad contract in the NBA (maybe all of sports), Thomas brought in a host of expensive contracts trying to amass a talented squad. We are currently about 35 million over the cap, the same as when Layden was fired. Let’s call that even.

How is it a tie when Isiah has been clearly worse? Isiah set NBA records for highest team salary in NBA history.

Posted by RemBee76:

Trades and free agent signings have been a mixed bag for either man, too complex to go into now. Judgement on Isiah’s big trade for Curry is still pending, Layden’s big trade for Antonio McDyess an unmitigated flop. Hoops hype lists Layden’s best transaction as re-signing Kurt Thomas in 2000. Isiah’s was the selection of David Lee, a pick he traded for. Advantage: Isiah.

Again too complex to go into... meaning Layden has the advantage. Layden's signings were guys who made an impact. Layden's trades were bad, but Isiah's were equally bad, and in many cases, more damaging to the franchise than Layden's.

Posted by RemBee76:

Public relations? I guess you have to put this one in there because of the trial. Clearly Layden's "lay low and hope nothing bad happens" approach is preferable to Isiah's, though his regime wasn't free of its own scandals.

The guy who says nothing vs. the liar/sexual harasser? As of today, Layden gets the edge, just because of how bad a disaster Isiah's regime has been.

Posted by RemBee76:

Player relations? Has to go to Isiah. Remember when Layden was too scared of Camby to talk to him after the big fight so he sent LJ? Can you imagine Isiah Thomas doing that?

Crazy criteria. Layden was never a coach of the team, so of course Isiah is going to have better chemistry with the players. I think this category is bogus, as the conversation was Layden vs. Isiah as GM. Nobody is complaining about Isiah as a coach.

Posted by RemBee76:

Anything else to add to the scorecard? By my count its 4-2 Isiah. Considering Layden took over a team that had just made the finals and Isiah took over a team that was 9-19 after two lottery seasons, I think you have to give Zeke the edge.

Layden definitely gets the edge. It's really no question... and that's just sad. It just shows what a bad job Isiah has done (as GM). But you have to separate Isiah the coach from Isiah the GM.

Posted by RemBee76:
But this isn't a ringing endorsement of either man. And I still maintain that working for MSG can make any man look a fool. Isiah was just a considerably higher profile fool.

Ahh, so the scapegoat for Isiah's incompetence is MSG? For as bad and as poorly run an organization as this is, I don't think any other GM would've put the Knicks in as big a hole as they are today.

[Edited by - Solace on Oct 02 2007 9:15 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Well we made it on The Countdown with Keith Olberman and probably all the other evening TV shows. This is the worst run franchise in sports and is an utter embarrassment.

We can all hope that maybe the Knicks will get contracted, and the league will move the Bobcats to NY.

Posted by Solace:

No I don't. Nor do I in private. But I may consider buying a Fire Isiah t-shirt.

At least some are finally starting to see that Isiah's era is even worse than the Layden era.

[Edited by - Solace on Oct 02 2007 6:20 PM]

Totally with ya on that one.