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The critics of IT change direction
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kam77
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7/2/2007  12:04 PM
First the plan was to bash isiah for giving up too many assets for stars.
-Proven wrong. We have somehow had plenty of assets to make moves these last few years.

Now the plan has changed to bash isiah for giving up potential cap space.
-Will be proven wrong when no max players lead their NEW teams to a title anytime soon.

Shaq notwithstanding, you can't Free Agent your way to a title. Cap space is nice, but nothing like its made out to be on this forum. You gotta be able to draft well (check) and have assets to make trades (check).

"You really need players that attract other players ... and as players become available we'll have interest and use the assets that we have to try to get better and upgrade our roster."
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
AUTOADVERT
kam77
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7/2/2007  12:06 PM
Why would we have a shot for KOBE etc... at all when we'd have a bare cupboard to pare him with. We wouldn't. He wouldn't be making noise about going to CHICAGO is they sucked. Isiah is doing what he can to make a run at a sign-and-trade for Kobe, and failing that, the next available MEGASTAR.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/2/2007  12:15 PM
kam - the team hasn't broken 33 wins in 3 years. we are not cutting payroll and we've traded away higher picks for players isiah wanted with nothing to show for it yet.

isiah deserves every criticism he gets until the players here WIN.

why can certain teams (some younger than us) win games while we continue to struggle?
why can certain teams make wholesale changes and win games while we continue to use that as an "adjustment" period?

you put the right players together and you win.

so far, this team is not only losing, but losing at a very bad clip.

WIN and all this IT "bashing" goes away.

as mister.earl says...it ain't that deep.
djsunyc
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7/2/2007  12:23 PM
btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.
Masterplan
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7/2/2007  12:29 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.
TMS
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7/2/2007  12:38 PM
Posted by kam77:
Shaq notwithstanding, you can't Free Agent your way to a title. Cap space is nice, but nothing like its made out to be on this forum. You gotta be able to draft well (check) and have assets to make trades (check).

what does drafting well have anything to do with this trade? you speak as if those of us who are concerned about the trade's ramifications on the cap had no concerns at all about the draft... that's a completely different topic.

as for your contention about not being able to free agent your way to a title, i'm still waiting for you to name me a team that's traded their way to get their hands on a megastar & won a title, Shaq notwithstanding... there aren't any examples for you to cite either, so what's your argument based on? you think a good way to win a championship is by trading for guys with albatross contracts that don't play any defense? where are you drawing your conclusions from here? no one said the team wasn't improved talent wise through this trade... the argument is about how it will affect our longterm flexibility to put together a championship calibre roster.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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7/2/2007  12:44 PM
DETROIT traded for Rasheed and won it all.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/2/2007  12:44 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by djsunyc:

btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.


not to be confused with the
Bonn1997
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7/2/2007  12:49 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.

I don't think Isiah ever changed directions actually. I think he always wanted to put together a veteran team that could squeeze out as many wins as possible *immediately* (rather than rebuilding) and would bring in as much money as possible. He just had to accumulate some young players to get those veterans and had to keep a few young ones around to be able to say he was rebuilding.
Silverfuel
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7/2/2007  12:54 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

why can certain teams (some younger than us) win games while we continue to struggle?
why can certain teams make wholesale changes and win games while we continue to use that as an "adjustment" period?
Because the owner of the franchise is looking for a mediocre team that will make him money, not a team that loses money but wins a lot of games.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
TMS
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7/2/2007  12:58 PM
Posted by kam77:

DETROIT traded for Rasheed and won it all.

that's your example of that megastar? lol... how about Chauncey Billups who signed w/the Pistons as a FA & helped them to win a title?

if you want to talk about role players, i can name you free agents like Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley & Brent Barry who helped the Spurs win multiple championships too for that matter... the fact remains, cap flexibility & the ability to sign FA's most definitely IS a key factor in how teams have constructed winning teams over the past several years... those are the facts, whether you choose to believe it or not.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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7/2/2007  1:05 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:

btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.

I don't think Isiah ever changed directions actually. I think he always wanted to put together a veteran team that could squeeze out as many wins as possible *immediately* (rather than rebuilding) and would bring in as much money as possible. He just had to accumulate some young players to get those veterans and had to keep a few young ones around to be able to say he was rebuilding.

Now how does that make ANY SENSE whatsoever? All he's done in the last 3 years is make the team younger and better. We all want more wins, but there has to also be some amount of common sense when it comes to expectations and the results. We've had a strange last 2 years, but this last season in particular had at least a gradual upswing in wins and I can see this team continuing to improve this coming season.

Isiah said he wanted to make the team younger, more athletic and to eventually win. I think he's been trying to do that and in the last 3 offseasons that's pretty much all he's looked to do. The wins are the last part of the puzzle to come and I believe we'll see that this season. It was said that it would take hiim 3-5 years to fix this team when he took over and he seems to be about on target in year 4.
Masterplan
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7/2/2007  1:09 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:

btw critics of isiah haven't change direction as much as isiah has with his roster, style of play (which is what exactly?), and coaches.

I don't think Isiah ever changed directions actually. I think he always wanted to put together a veteran team that could squeeze out as many wins as possible *immediately* (rather than rebuilding) and would bring in as much money as possible. He just had to accumulate some young players to get those veterans and had to keep a few young ones around to be able to say he was rebuilding.

Now how does that make ANY SENSE whatsoever? All he's done in the last 3 years is make the team younger and better. We all want more wins, but there has to also be some amount of common sense when it comes to expectations and the results. We've had a strange last 2 years, but this last season in particular had at least a gradual upswing in wins and I can see this team continuing to improve this coming season.

Isiah said he wanted to make the team younger, more athletic and to eventually win. I think he's been trying to do that and in the last 3 offseasons that's pretty much all he's looked to do. The wins are the last part of the puzzle to come and I believe we'll see that this season. It was said that it would take hiim 3-5 years to fix this team when he took over and he seems to be about on target in year 4.

but the team isn't fixed. it's younger and more talented and athletic, but it's still a collection of assets, not any cohesive winning organization. we're still years and more moves from being a contender.
kam77
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7/2/2007  1:23 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:

DETROIT traded for Rasheed and won it all.

that's your example of that megastar? lol... how about Chauncey Billups who signed w/the Pistons as a FA & helped them to win a title?

if you want to talk about role players, i can name you free agents like Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley & Brent Barry who helped the Spurs win multiple championships too for that matter... the fact remains, cap flexibility & the ability to sign FA's most definitely IS a key factor in how teams have constructed winning teams over the past several years... those are the facts, whether you choose to believe it or not.

See this is where you run into trouble with your hyperbole. Rasheed Wallace was not Bruce Bowen. Rasheed a couple years back was the catapult Detroit needed and they won the title wit him as their "Max" player. Chauncey was a MLE signing that any team could have gotten, including the Knicks.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
newyorknewyork
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7/2/2007  1:28 PM
I've said it for yrs that it isn't about cap space. Its about cap flexability.

Randolph makes a lot of money. If he doesn't work out here his value is going to be shot and he isn't going to be tradable then we will be stuck with him. Just like with Marbury. Then the only way to trade him is going to be to trade him for a player with a worse contract.

Randolph deosn't gurantee success either as he hasn't carried his team to winning seasons in the past. He is a big risk with off the court issues as well. So to some buying out Francis and keeping frye or swapping Frye with another young player with a better defensive skill set with a cheaper contract would be less of a risk and would have balanced the team more. Trading Frye for a pick to snatch up Sean Williams at the draft even with his baggage and drafting Almond & still trading for Nichols would have been way less of a risk and would have filled huge holes in shotblocking defense & outside shooting.

Looking to being under or close to under the cap doesn't mean that you must go after a big name freeagent either. But it gives you the flexability to wait for great options to come available. If you have cap space you shouldn't spend it on the first big name player to come along anway unless he is an excellent fit. When Utah was 10mil under the cap they ate Guggs ending salary from Pheniox and added a mid rd draft pick doing so. They basically got a #16pick for holding Guggs contract for 30games or so. Having cap space gives you a Ton of options.

Its not about cap space. Its looking at the risk involved in the deal. There are huge risk all over this deal. If Randolph had a 2 yrs left like Francis I don't think anyone would complain because the risk would be minimal.
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Nalod
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7/2/2007  1:29 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:

DETROIT traded for Rasheed and won it all.

that's your example of that megastar? lol... how about Chauncey Billups who signed w/the Pistons as a FA & helped them to win a title?

if you want to talk about role players, i can name you free agents like Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley & Brent Barry who helped the Spurs win multiple championships too for that matter... the fact remains, cap flexibility & the ability to sign FA's most definitely IS a key factor in how teams have constructed winning teams over the past several years... those are the facts, whether you choose to believe it or not.

See this is where you run into trouble with your hyperbole. Rasheed Wallace was not Bruce Bowen. Rasheed a couple years back was the catapult Detroit needed and they won the title wit him as their "Max" player. Chauncey was a MLE signing that any team could have gotten, including the Knicks.

And they had the right coach for that team........

Nix,

We are younger, more athletic, and more talented. 5 coaches later........We only won 55 games in the last two years!

The ship ain't sinking, its just not going anywhere.
kam77
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7/2/2007  1:30 PM
If Randolph had 2 years left we wouldn't have been able to get him. We got this guy NOW, as he reaches his prime. He can also be a good influence (Basketball-wise, not as a Pet owner) on Eddy to become a harder worker.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
newyorknewyork
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7/2/2007  1:38 PM
Randolph's skill set isn't one of our biggest needs either. So if we wouldn't have been able to get him if he had 2 yrs left, oh well. We would still be looking at cap flexability in 09 rather than 2011.
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kam77
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7/2/2007  1:48 PM
And with Cap flexibillity in two years comes its own risk. IF we are still a poor team, what Superstar will push to come here? Everyone seems to be looking at that 04 draft class with LeBron, Dwayne, Carmelo, Bosh as if we'll be certain to acquire one of them. Its a risk! We could just as easily blow it on a Larry Hughes type. Even a Michael Redd is a max money guy.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/2/2007  1:51 PM
there is no "right" way to do things but it seems that teams spend money once they have their franchise player to build around. and if you don't, you want to keep all options open in getting one. and that includes keeping cap space open in the event you can't draft one.

ny + cap space, we don't know who that can attract. it's very possible that if we were under the cap this summer, then either lebron, wade, melo or bosh only sign their 1 year qualifying and come to us this summer. we don't know.

but recycling players and hoping to find lightning in a bottle may help you build a perennial playoff team, but a title team? we'd never be in the running.

detroit is the 1 exception in nba history and they built their team on frontcourt defense.
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