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The Real Problem with the Trade (Lee vs. Zach)
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MS
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7/2/2007  9:58 AM
Give David Lee 38 minutes on the floor your looking at:

14pts 12rbs 3ass 60%

Give Zach Randolf 38 minutes with the Knicks your looking at:

16pts 10rbs 2ass 47%

And your taking an impact free agent out of play, the guy had microfracture surgery, countless runins with the law. This is a typical Isiah move, yes we get better but only if curry is playing 30 minutes a night and randolf 35. Which means your leaving 33 minutes for lee. However Isiah is going to want to work in morris, so lee's minutes will decrease.

Lee's defense isn't as bad as some think either, just because Isiah doesn't know how to coach and played him against, Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith and other sf doesn't mean he can't guard the 4.

ZBO 1286 fga in 68 games
EC 1016 fga in 81 games

Everyone knows two of the biggest areas of concerns

Two headed monster
EC 0.8ass 3.64tos .49blks
ZR 2.2ass 3.16tos .2 blks

3.0ass 6.8tos .69blks (most disgraceful stat in the history of the league)

And we know full well by Isiah's comments about defense he is just a fool, a liar, whatever. But if he is expecting the guards to guard the three and do a better job, i ask how if crawford and nate are in the rotation. Each have zero desire to win, because they rarely give it up on d. And both are more than capable.

Next he is going to play Z and C at the same time and won't reduce curry to maximize his effectiveness.

And two players that will not see the minutes they need are balkman, and collins our two best defenders and one of the main reasons the team rarely got blown out during their 3-14 stretch.

Isiah thinks he is smarter than everyone, a big reason for not drafting the best shooter when he fell into his lap and taking Balkmans brother without the motor. As if we need another player at the sf position.

Most Important Question: Who does this trade make us better than?

The Bucks? They were more injured than us, get back simmons and a healthy frontline to go with knick killer mo williams

The Bobcats? No......We one 1/3 against them and they just added another explosive scorer and the knicks couldn't handle felton or wallace how do we check Richardson, we always get killed against quick teams, so right now we are even at best

The Hawks? Perhaps but they still have some dollars to spend and they did get a lot better and their two top players are better than our top players at the moment

Right now I can say we are better than Indy, Boston? But, be honest and as of this moment I think Orlando is a team we can jump ahead of, and I believe Washington will not be able to handle us down low, but head to heads might not get us in before them?
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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7/2/2007  10:23 AM
Posted by MS:

Give David Lee 38 minutes on the floor your looking at:

14pts 12rbs 3ass 60%

Give Zach Randolf 38 minutes with the Knicks your looking at:

16pts 10rbs 2ass 47%
Now that's alarming!
MS
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7/2/2007  10:25 AM
I don't really think that's too far off what your going to see, because lee doesn't need shots to score
Bonn1997
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7/2/2007  10:28 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by MS:

Give David Lee 38 minutes on the floor your looking at:

14pts 12rbs 3ass 60%

Give Zach Randolf 38 minutes with the Knicks your looking at:

16pts 10rbs 2ass 47%
Now that's alarming!

Actually, how did you calculate the 16 Pts?
VDesai
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7/2/2007  10:34 AM
You're giving Zach 7 less points by averaging 2 more minutes per game. Seems a little drastic to me, though I agree he'll have fewer shots. I also don't think Zach's turnovers will be quite as bad with fewer touches:

http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=553

His turnover rate was more or less normal for a big man. Zach averaged roughly 1.25 pts per attempts last year. If he scores at the same efficiency with only 16 shots (almost 3 fewer per game than last year), he scores about 20 ppg. Draggging him down 4 shots to 15 he still gets almost 19 a game. 5 shots to 14 and he gets 17.5 a game.
fishmike
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7/2/2007  10:39 AM
I think a frontcourt rotation of Zach/Eddy/Lee is pretty damn good. My biggest concern is Eddy's fat ass moving on defense and both feet leaving the ground for rebounds.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
VDesai
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7/2/2007  10:43 AM
I do agree that one of the keys to the season is how Lee is gonna get his 32 minutes, cause we're gonna need him to get those minutes. I think I'd start him at the 3 (give him 20 or minutes a game there) and rotate at the 4 and 5 with Curry and Zach for the other 12. He could still be a great double-double complementary guy this year if Isiah can figure out a rotational plan and stick to it.

I'd love to see Randolph Morris develop, but we gotta think about winning at the start of the year. Get a nice 8 man rotation (Lee, Balkman and Q Rich with primary minutes off the bench, and sprinkle in some Mardy as needed).
MS
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7/2/2007  10:47 AM
I actually don't think it's all that drastic to be honest, your not really looking at who plays for our team, everyone is a gunner, so i think 16pts is spot on

Marbury 13fga
Crawford 15fga
Curry 12.5fga
Richardson 11.1fga
Nate 8fga

Roy 13.4fga
LA 7.6fga
Jack 8.9fga
Outlaw 8.5fga
Webster 6fga
nykshaknbake
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7/2/2007  10:57 AM
Feel mixed about the trade but this isn't just selective presentation of numbers. This is outright fudging them. So Lee scores the same amount and Randolph's goes down by 7 points arbitrarily.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by MS:

Give David Lee 38 minutes on the floor your looking at:

14pts 12rbs 3ass 60%

Give Zach Randolf 38 minutes with the Knicks your looking at:

16pts 10rbs 2ass 47%
Now that's alarming!

Actually, how did you calculate the 16 Pts?
VDesai
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7/2/2007  10:59 AM
Posted by MS:

I actually don't think it's all that drastic to be honest, your not really looking at who plays for our team, everyone is a gunner, so i think 16pts is spot on

Marbury 13fga
Crawford 15fga
Curry 12.5fga
Richardson 11.1fga
Nate 8fga

Roy 13.4fga
LA 7.6fga
Jack 8.9fga
Outlaw 8.5fga
Webster 6fga


Dude, did you read my post? Assuming Zach shoots at the same clip and draws fouls and shoots his FT's at the same rate, he'd need to take 6 less shots per game to go down to as low as 16 pts. That's pretty drastic. If he takes up the shots that Stevie+Frye took (roughly 17 shots per game), he'd average 21 ppg.
TheGame
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7/2/2007  11:06 AM
You have to remember that Lee did not start much last year either. Assuming Randolph gets 35 minutes and Curry gets 33 minutes, then that's about 28 minutes for Lee, plus he can get a few minutes at SF. I would expect JJ2 to get 22 minutes and Balkman to get about the same (22 minutes). So Lee should be able to average close to 30 minutes and we can still allow Randolph and Curry to play enough minutes to get their shots. I don't think it is going to be a huge problem. Randolph basically replaces Frye and with Francis gone, that is one less gunner on the team.
Trust the Process
MS
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7/2/2007  11:09 AM
I read it but you have to think that balkman, collins, lee will make up a lot of those shots, not to mention eddy will be shooting a few more times a game. Its hard to imagine him putting up almost the same numbers.....

Even though he will get a little less attention from defenders with the team around him. Isiah should really trade, crawford/morris etc to get another good wing player, i would even through in chandler to get a player like artest to increase the defense. You could then start him at the two and get rid of crawford's long term salary get more minutes for collins and use nate to space the floor. In the long run it would make us 10x better on the defensive end up the ball clear up some cap and actually produce a team that can do damage.

Marbury/Collins
Artest/Nate
Richardson/Balkman
Randolf/Lee
Curry
arkrud
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7/2/2007  11:10 AM
On winning team it's all comes to efficiency.
On losing it's all comes to highlights
Any business must use what he has. You cannot win then deliver the splashes.
Zack is nice help to add to losing team tools arsenal.

We had Lee and Balk to somehow compensate on Eddy and Fry inability to defend and provide intangibles.
Now we have Eddy and Z-bo and need to compensate the flaws for both. We have not enough material to do this.
Good teams will drop 55-65% on us. We will be blown away on regular basis.





[Edited by - arkrud on 07-02-2007 11:11 AM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
misterearl
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7/2/2007  11:11 AM
MS - How can there be a problem with healthy competition at the power forward position?

best five play
once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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7/2/2007  11:14 AM
Posted by misterearl:

MS - How can there be a problem with healthy competition at the power forward position?

best five play
Lee and Balkman would have averaged far more min if that was the case. It's more like the highest paid five play.
VDesai
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7/2/2007  11:18 AM
Posted by MS:

I read it but you have to think that balkman, collins, lee will make up a lot of those shots, not to mention eddy will be shooting a few more times a game. Its hard to imagine him putting up almost the same numbers.....

Even though he will get a little less attention from defenders with the team around him. Isiah should really trade, crawford/morris etc to get another good wing player, i would even through in chandler to get a player like artest to increase the defense. You could then start him at the two and get rid of crawford's long term salary get more minutes for collins and use nate to space the floor. In the long run it would make us 10x better on the defensive end up the ball clear up some cap and actually produce a team that can do damage.

Marbury/Collins
Artest/Nate
Richardson/Balkman
Randolf/Lee
Curry

MS, but Zach has to take 13 shots a game (6 shots less than what he took last year) to get down to as low as you're proposing. You have to believe he gets about 15 shots (still a few shots less than what Frye and Francis averaged). That still gets him to 19 ppg.
MS
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7/2/2007  11:22 AM
Earl valid points escape you, you would have a good point if isiah wasn't the coach

Jefferies (24min 4.1pts 4.3rbs 1.2as 0.6blk)
vs.
Balkman (15.6min 4.9pts 4.3rbs 0.6ass 0.6lks)

Frye (26min 43% 9.5pts 5.5rbs starting 4)
vs.
Lee (30min 60% 10.7pts 10.4rbs more minutes but should have started all year)

If Isiah knew anything about the game of basketball from a coaching stand point, call me a know at all but, crawford would have came off the bench richardson would have started at the two. Lee would have played the most minutes on the team, curry would have only played 30. Crawford would have been a weapon of the bench, balkman would have played 25 minutes a night, jefferies, james and francis would never be knicks. Collins would have cut into nates minutes. The best 5 don't always plays, those that make the most money or are isiah main guys get the minutes even when they don't deserve them.......
James starting
kam77
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7/2/2007  11:31 AM
you have to think that balkman, collins, lee will make up a lot of those shots

None of those guys should be shooting the ball on a regular basis.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
MS
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7/2/2007  11:47 AM
in the fast break if we push the ball i can't name a lot of guys that finish better than balkman and lee, and i would like collins to be more agressive going to the basket. The more pressure we put inside the better we will be:

note to crawford

Shooting off balanced 20 footers when you can take anyone off the dribble and have 4 guys that can finish anything around the basket leads to your team going to the lottery
TheGame
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7/2/2007  11:51 AM
Posted by MS:

Earl valid points escape you, you would have a good point if isiah wasn't the coach

Jefferies (24min 4.1pts 4.3rbs 1.2as 0.6blk)
vs.
Balkman (15.6min 4.9pts 4.3rbs 0.6ass 0.6lks)

Frye (26min 43% 9.5pts 5.5rbs starting 4)
vs.
Lee (30min 60% 10.7pts 10.4rbs more minutes but should have started all year)

If Isiah knew anything about the game of basketball from a coaching stand point, call me a know at all but, crawford would have came off the bench richardson would have started at the two. Lee would have played the most minutes on the team, curry would have only played 30. Crawford would have been a weapon of the bench, balkman would have played 25 minutes a night, jefferies, james and francis would never be knicks. Collins would have cut into nates minutes. The best 5 don't always plays, those that make the most money or are isiah main guys get the minutes even when they don't deserve them.......
James starting

I agree that some of those decisions were made by the "I am fighting for my job" Isiah. Now that Dolan has given him some breathing room, I think IT is going to be making more decisions based solely on talent and not salary or draft position, which is probably one of the reasons he was willing to ship out Fyre (who he drafted high) but is not willing to include Lee in any potential deals, including any deal for Rashard Lewis. I also think that Balkman will play more minutes this year than JJ2 (unless the rumors that JJ2's jumper is improving are true).
Trust the Process
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