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OT: Time to fix the yanks
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EnySpree
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5/29/2007  12:49 AM
To me I think it has to do with the starphuching steinbrenner has always endorsed since he has owned the yanks.

Starting off with Johnny Damon. He just has that hopeless look in his eyes. He's not having fun. He's the type of dude that rides off his own arrogance. He can't be a rockstar without his edge. In Boston he had a crew of personalities to feed off of. This team just isn't for him. I would like to see him gone ASAP.

Abreau has that channing Frye look in his eyes. I believe somewhere along the line he convinced himself he sucks. He needs to go just as fast as Damon.

That's it really. Torre has had matsui in the bottom of the line-up for too long. Hideki needs to be batting 3rd behind cano. They also need to put jeter back in the lead off spot. Yanks have to make melky a full-time starter. Guys need to be held accountable. Put them in the game where they have to focus. I believe this could jump start the bats and settle the pitching down.

Jeter
Cano
Matsui
A-rod
Giambi
Posada
Doug m.
Melky
???

The yanks need to get some speed
In the outfield and the bases. They need to be able to manufacture runs and play defense.

Its not that complicated. Torre probably needed to be let go before the season started. Yanks need to get back to manufacturing runs. He has to trust his starters. Mike Myers needs to go also by the way.

Are there any players out there you guys think can help the yanks?

What do you guys think about all this?
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Bonn1997
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5/29/2007  7:09 AM
Cash-Man's time is long up. He's stunk up my favorite team for too long.
Yankees are on pace to finish 45 games out of first place.
Nalod
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5/29/2007  8:54 AM
Yanks need to sell pieces off and CONTINUE the youth movment that lies beneath the surface.

Cashman is undoing Stienbrenners last ranting signings. This team is cooked, done, and if they trade off youth to save it they should be shot.

Bonnie, it does not last forever without a big infusion of youth of pitching.

This team never had a shot this year. They are Starphuching and your just lapping that crap up.

This will be 7 seasons without a ring.

Pitching.

Also, time for Torre to hang it up. Love the guy, just time to go.
Solace
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5/29/2007  9:30 AM
The Yankees have a lot of valuable veteran pieces. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a few traded for some great youth, like we got in the Sheffield trade.

Quite frankly, I'd say we're dead set on keeping A-Rod, Jeter, Cano and probably Matsui. If that's the case, I'm willing to trade Damon, Abreu, Posada, Giambi and get some great young pieces and start this thing over. Giambi coming here was a joke to start with. While I'll give Giambi the fact that he's had some big clutch hits, let's be realistic, he wanted to stay in Oakland and only went to NY for the money. Same probably true with Damon. Posada still has some value on the market. I'd be all for trading him and putting a younger, defensive-minded option at catcher. And finally, Abreu has just been putrid.

Make some trades, continue to get younger. What we're going to need is a knockout pitching staff, not homerun hitters 1-9. You can't win if everyone goes up to the plate looking for a homer. You need a few guys who do that and the rest go to the plate looking to get on base. That's the whole problem with a baseball team centered around so many 'stars'.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
EnySpree
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5/29/2007  9:42 AM
So Yankee fans, where do we look to for this youth?

I think we all agree that abreau and Johnny Damon should be shipped. Who needs them and what players can we get back? Should the yanks target a certain player or team?
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EnySpree
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5/29/2007  9:44 AM
So Yankee fans, where do we look to for this youth?

I think we all agree that abreau and Johnny Damon should be shipped. Who needs them and what players can we get back? Should the yanks target a certain player or team?
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Bonn1997
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5/29/2007  10:15 AM
I don't think Abreu has any trade value. I wouldn't give up one young prospect for him. I would for Damon, though, but then that just means we have to find a new centerfielder this offseason.
JohnWallace44
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5/29/2007  1:58 PM
We should try to trade for Texiera. I think Abreu has more value than Damon because his contract is up soon.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Pharzeone
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5/29/2007  7:39 PM
Where is Fish? I want to hear his thoughts on Cashman's performance.
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Rich
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5/29/2007  11:04 PM
Any fair evaluation of Cashman has to consider that he has only had true decision making power since Oct. 2005. He was against some of the stupid signings that the franchise has made over the years, but was overruled.

He wanted to sign Vlad instead of Sheff, and Beltran instead of trading for RJ, but he was overruled.

Granted, he did sign Pavano, but Boston and Detroit wanted him too, even though his career stats were mediocre.

It's too early to fairly grade the Sheff and RJ trades.

He has only supervised one amateur draft during his tenure (last June's), and the results were superb. He has done an amazing job of rebuilding the farm system, which is now one of the best in MLB.

Cashman's biggest failing is that he has been too supportive of Torre, who should have been fired at the end of last season, if not before.

It's time to fire Torre now.
Bonn1997
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5/30/2007  7:27 AM
Any fair evaluation of Cashman has to consider that he has only had true decision making power since Oct. 2005.
I don't agree with that but more importantly, since Oct 2005, all he's done is gradually worsen the team.
Rich
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5/30/2007  9:56 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Any fair evaluation of Cashman has to consider that he has only had true decision making power since Oct. 2005.
I don't agree with that but more importantly, since Oct 2005, all he's done is gradually worsen the team.

You don't agree with what, established facts? He never had the power to be the sole decision-maker since he signed his current contract in October 2005.

How much better would this team be if he had had the power to sign Vlad and Beltran as he wanted? Much. It's not debatable.

As for making the team worse:

2005 AL East 95-67 (.586)
2006 AL East 97-65 (.599)

So that's provably false as well.

The team's has endured injuries to Pettitte (back spasms in ST), Wang (hamstring), Moose (hamstring), Hughes (hanmstring and now sprained ankle), Pavano (expletive deleted), Karstens (broken leg), Rasner (broken knuckle)...

That caused a ton of short starts which killed the pen and prevented Mo from getting regular work. Torre exacerbated both problems with his suspect bullpen management.

Meanwhile, the farm system has gone from one that was rated near the bottom of MLB in 2005 to one that is in the top five or six by Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, and several other rating systems.

Cashman has supervised one draft and it yielded Ian Kennedy, Joba Chamberlain, who are both dominating at Tamapa, and several other prospects.

Has Cash made some mistakes? Sure, but the facts rebut your assertion.
Bonn1997
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5/30/2007  10:15 AM
Man the team sucks. Most of the *healthy* overpriced veterans suck and all you have to do is look at the standings to see how much worse the team is. It's really not that complicated. The part about Cash-Man having no role pre-2005 isn't even worth getting into again.
Bonn1997
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5/30/2007  10:25 AM
Also, as to the injuries, the team's record when its 3 "aces" (Pettitte, Mussina, and Wang) are healthy and starting is still well below .500. It's really hard with that in mind to project that this would be even a .500 team if its pitchers were healthier. And finally, when you put together a team of over-the-hill veterans, you have to expect and plan for many injuries.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 30-05-2007 10:25 AM]
Rich
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5/30/2007  11:00 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Man the team sucks. Most of the *healthy* overpriced veterans suck and all you have to do is look at the standings to see how much worse the team is. It's really not that complicated. The part about Cash-Man having no role pre-2005 isn't even worth getting into again.

No one said no role, the point is that he didn't have a decisive role. He was one member of George's baseball committee that had a floating power base.

It's established fact.

So Cash should have known that Cano and Abreu would tank and that Damon would get hurt.

Please tell me how he should have known that?
Rich
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5/30/2007  11:05 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Also, as to the injuries, the team's record when its 3 "aces" (Pettitte, Mussina, and Wang) are healthy and starting is still well below .500. It's really hard with that in mind to project that this would be even a .500 team if its pitchers were healthier. And finally, when you put together a team of over-the-hill veterans, you have to expect and plan for many injuries.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 30-05-2007 10:25 AM]

Wang missed most of April. Mussina missed three weeks in late April and early May. It then takes time to build up arm strength, so it's like beginning Spring Training anew after the injury.

As for Giambi's injury, that was a George signing. Cash had nothing to do with it.

This wouldn't be a .500 team if everyone was healthy? Wow. You are far more prescient than almost every baseball expert, most of whom picked them to finish first.

Who has Cash acquired that is over the hill? Since he has taken over, his goal has been to make the team younger. He has had exactly a year and a half to do that. It's a time consuming process.
jaydh
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5/30/2007  12:30 PM
Posted by Solace:

The Yankees have a lot of valuable veteran pieces. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a few traded for some great youth, like we got in the Sheffield trade.

Quite frankly, I'd say we're dead set on keeping A-Rod, Jeter, Cano and probably Matsui. If that's the case, I'm willing to trade Damon, Abreu, Posada, Giambi and get some great young pieces and start this thing over.

No one is going to give anything for half a season of a struggling&declining Abreu. No one is going to take on Giambi's $20+mil a year, plus the controversy he brings. No one will give up anything significant for Posada when he is a FA to be and can just walk. It will be tough to get someone to take Arod's $28mil/yr salary. Matsui could probably still get full value since he is consistent. And Damon might fetch something, but not full value due to his dumb contract and lack of D. It will be interesting to see what the yankees do with these guys, but chances are they are stuck with them unless they are willing to take lesser value.
Bonn1997
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5/30/2007  12:44 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Also, as to the injuries, the team's record when its 3 "aces" (Pettitte, Mussina, and Wang) are healthy and starting is still well below .500. It's really hard with that in mind to project that this would be even a .500 team if its pitchers were healthier. And finally, when you put together a team of over-the-hill veterans, you have to expect and plan for many injuries.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 30-05-2007 10:25 AM]

Wang missed most of April. Mussina missed three weeks in late April and early May. It then takes time to build up arm strength, so it's like beginning Spring Training anew after the injury.

As for Giambi's injury, that was a George signing. Cash had nothing to do with it.

This wouldn't be a .500 team if everyone was healthy? Wow. You are far more prescient than almost every baseball expert, most of whom picked them to finish first.

Who has Cash acquired that is over the hill? Since he has taken over, his goal has been to make the team younger. He has had exactly a year and a half to do that. It's a time consuming process.
Well Abreu is definitely over the hill. Mussina was re-signed and looks over the hill. Those players were signed by Cash-Man in the period where you said he was a real GM. There are more examples when he was GM before 2005 but I know you'll say they're Steinbrenner signings without having evidence that would hold up in court that Cash-Man didn't have at least a 50% role in the decision-making.
Rich
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5/30/2007  4:08 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Also, as to the injuries, the team's record when its 3 "aces" (Pettitte, Mussina, and Wang) are healthy and starting is still well below .500. It's really hard with that in mind to project that this would be even a .500 team if its pitchers were healthier. And finally, when you put together a team of over-the-hill veterans, you have to expect and plan for many injuries.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 30-05-2007 10:25 AM]

Wang missed most of April. Mussina missed three weeks in late April and early May. It then takes time to build up arm strength, so it's like beginning Spring Training anew after the injury.

As for Giambi's injury, that was a George signing. Cash had nothing to do with it.

This wouldn't be a .500 team if everyone was healthy? Wow. You are far more prescient than almost every baseball expert, most of whom picked them to finish first.

Who has Cash acquired that is over the hill? Since he has taken over, his goal has been to make the team younger. He has had exactly a year and a half to do that. It's a time consuming process.
Well Abreu is definitely over the hill. Mussina was re-signed and looks over the hill. Those players were signed by Cash-Man in the period where you said he was a real GM. There are more examples when he was GM before 2005 but I know you'll say they're Steinbrenner signings without having evidence that would hold up in court that Cash-Man didn't have at least a 50% role in the decision-making.

Even assuming arguendo that Abreu is over the hill, how was it foreseeable to any reasonable observer when he put up these stats for the Yankees in 2006 after he was acquired?

.330 .419 .507 .926

Mussina had a 3.51 ERA in 2006, which ranked him 11th in MLB:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=ERA&split=0&season=2006&pos=all&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minip=0

You make it sound like these players sucked last season. The facts are unequivocal that they didn't.

Of course, you have already claimed that Cash made the team worse from 2005 to 2006 and I demonstrated that their record improved.

Really? All I would have to do is depose Cashman, Steinbrenner, Levine, and Troast, and I would be able to prove by a preponderance of the evidence (the requisite burden of proof in a civil action) that Cashman didn't have 50% of the power in all decisions. He had authority to make some decisions and not others. Did he make mistake? Of course, but who doesn't?

There is an argument to be made that Cashman hasn't done a superb job, but you haven't come close to making it.
Cookdcokehop
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5/30/2007  4:47 PM
How about them Mets!!!!!! JEAAAAAA BOI!!!!
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