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Dice may be gone for most of next season - holy crap!
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fmoran
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4/24/2003  4:51 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

If you're satisfied with anything less than being number 1, then there's no point in discussing it further.
Nope, nothing left to say. I'm in love with mediocrity and trivial things like "taking steps", while you're dreaming of a championship, something I obviously care nothing about.

Gimme a break. Being as good as Detroit or Indiana is just a step, like making the playoffs. I never said that's the ultimate goal. No, this team isn't good enough for a championship. Does that mean I "accept" mediocrity? No, it means I accept being mediocre now because we will be consistently improving for the future. McDyess brings that. Do you think that once we win the East, everyone will be satisfied and go home? No, then we are gonna get hungrier, and we are gonna try and improve even more. But we aren't there yet. You're shooting for the head chearleader, when the cute quiet girl is beggin' for some play. Build your way up. No one is accepting mediocrity if the most games this team is gonna win is 45.

ECF would be a huge accomplishment no question. but definitely one to build on. That's the part you aren't getting. We aren't even there yet, and all you can talk about is championship. Look at what they are, not what they aren't. The Knicks are a team that's gonna improve with Dice in the lineup. That's a great first step.
go knicks!
AUTOADVERT
Vmart
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4/24/2003  5:24 PM
Posted by fmoran:
Posted by DefAndReb:

If you're satisfied with anything less than being number 1, then there's no point in discussing it further.
Nope, nothing left to say. I'm in love with mediocrity and trivial things like "taking steps", while you're dreaming of a championship, something I obviously care nothing about.

Gimme a break. Being as good as Detroit or Indiana is just a step, like making the playoffs. I never said that's the ultimate goal. No, this team isn't good enough for a championship. Does that mean I "accept" mediocrity? No, it means I accept being mediocre now because we will be consistently improving for the future. McDyess brings that. Do you think that once we win the East, everyone will be satisfied and go home? No, then we are gonna get hungrier, and we are gonna try and improve even more. But we aren't there yet. You're shooting for the head chearleader, when the cute quiet girl is beggin' for some play. Build your way up. No one is accepting mediocrity if the most games this team is gonna win is 45.

ECF would be a huge accomplishment no question. but definitely one to build on. That's the part you aren't getting. We aren't even there yet, and all you can talk about is championship. Look at what they are, not what they aren't. The Knicks are a team that's gonna improve with Dice in the lineup. That's a great first step.

I think the Knicks should have taken a step back and then gone forward. This year was a golden opportunity for them to take a major step in the direction of a championship. You guys can argue until you are blue in the face but the reason why the knicks were good in the past and have potential every year to compete for a championship was because we had a superstar in Pat Ewing. At this moment the Knicks have good players but no one that is in the category of a superstar. Without one the Knicks won't be competeing at a high level. In the NBA its a league of Superstars and spectacular players if the KNicks continue to be mediocre of continue to be just below mediocre they will never get better and continue to spin their wheels one place like it is stuck in mud. The furture they fall from the top picks the less chance they have at a championship. Dice even if healthy won't get the Knicks to the promise land. I think what is so frustrating to NYK fans is how can they spend so much money on below average players when they could have gotten talent young players who will get better.

Right now the Knicks need to forget this championship talk because they don't have the goods to even get close to it even in the weak east. They should just concentrate on getting quality players who will one day get better and possibly get them a championship of course that is all dependent on the will of the organization. Do they want playoffs every year or do they want the championship. You can pretty much guarantee that once the Knicks start getting to the playoffs they won't take the next step to win it all thats when management comes in to play.
DefAndReb
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4/24/2003  5:39 PM
Posted by fmoran:

Gimme a break. Being as good as Detroit or Indiana is just a step, like making the playoffs. I never said that's the ultimate goal.

Good, glad to hear it. Think Dolan and Layden think the same thing?
No, this team isn't good enough for a championship. Does that mean I "accept" mediocrity? No, it means I accept being mediocre now because we will be consistently improving for the future. McDyess brings that. Do you think that once we win the East, everyone will be satisfied and go home?
In Layden and Dolan's case? Yes, I truly believe they would be satisfied with that.

McDyess, if he had been healthy, would have made us a better team, but not a great team. Fine, like you said, it's a step in the right direction, something I was saying on this board in defense of Layden's trade after McD's knee went out and people were calling for his head.

But McDyess is not healthy, and after 3 surgeries, I have no reason to believe he will ever be. If Layden makes all his next moves based on the assumption McD will be back in the lineup and able to play impact ball, we will not be improved by much. And another season is flushed down the toilet.
No, then we are gonna get hungrier, and we are gonna try and improve even more. But we aren't there yet. You're shooting for the head chearleader, when the cute quiet girl is beggin' for some play. Build your way up. No one is accepting mediocrity if the most games this team is gonna win is 45.

ECF would be a huge accomplishment no question. but definitely one to build on. That's the part you aren't getting. We aren't even there yet, and all you can talk about is championship. Look at what they are, not what they aren't. The Knicks are a team that's gonna improve with Dice in the lineup. That's a great first step.

How do I rephrase what I'm saying so you get where I'm coming from? I'm not against McDyess. I thought it was a bold move on Layden's part. It failed, but it was a bold move to make the team better. But even if it had worked, the team would still be missing a superstar player. Without him, we are an awful team with few bright spots. It doesn't have to happen right away, but I expect the management to be on the lookout for the next big star. They've acted as though McD was it, and I say "like hell he is". He was good when he was healthy, but not great. When are we going to get a great player?

I don't trust Layden or Dolan. I am convinced they are trying to build a mediorce team, because two rounds of playoff ball is sufficient for them.
fmoran
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4/24/2003  10:14 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

How do I rephrase what I'm saying so you get where I'm coming from? I'm not against McDyess. I thought it was a bold move on Layden's part. It failed, but it was a bold move to make the team better. But even if it had worked, the team would still be missing a superstar player. Without him, we are an awful team with few bright spots. It doesn't have to happen right away, but I expect the management to be on the lookout for the next big star. They've acted as though McD was it, and I say "like hell he is". He was good when he was healthy, but not great. When are we going to get a great player?

I don't trust Layden or Dolan. I am convinced they are trying to build a mediorce team, because two rounds of playoff ball is sufficient for them.
At the beginning of the season I would have agreed with you: McD wasn't enough. But with Houston's emergence this season as a star in his own right, I think it would have been possible to build around those two. Use Spree as the third man, or get something for him, and you've got a great foundation for a championship team. Get a younger, bigger guy for Thomas, get Milos to come to America, add draft picks, and years from now we'd be on our way. It really could have come together like this. No superstars, just a collection of good to great players, like Houston, Dice, Spree, Milos. It was a bold move, and I really believe it would have payed off, and not because Dice is a superstar, but because he'd fit in so well and compliment this team perfectly. It wasn't all about Dice. It's just that without him, we lose a key facet to the team, like losing Houston would devastate our perimeter game.

But I will admit, I've chanegd my opinion. However it looks for Dice right now, and even if I believe he's coming back, we should go into the summer not expecting his return. We should try and strengthen our low post game as much as possible, and if Dice comes back, take anything he gives us as a bouns. This was Layden's big mistake last summer: not having a back up plan. Let's not go through that again, because it will make for another wasted season.
go knicks!
OasisBU
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4/25/2003  11:01 AM
If this team had Nene or Amare - they would have made the playoffs ths year. Its that simple. Instead we have neither and a busted up PF who may never play again. This season was a waste. No playing time for Williams, and not a good draft position leaves the Knicks hands tied for yet another season.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Caseloads
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4/25/2003  12:15 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

If this team had Nene or Amare - they would have made the playoffs ths year. Its that simple. Instead we have neither and a busted up PF who may never play again. This season was a waste. No playing time for Williams, and not a good draft position leaves the Knicks hands tied for yet another season.
honestly, Nene and Amare would have been on the bench this season in favor of Othella and Spoon. it's the truth. They might have more upside, but Othella and Spoon both "know" the game better. Are you telling me that Frank Williams doesn't have more upside and athleticism than Eisley or Ward right now, and if he started 30-40 games, or at least played, would have learned more? You do learn and prove a lot in practice, but as a Point Guard, Center, and PF, you really learn in a lot in actual game situations.
DefAndReb
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4/25/2003  12:31 PM
Perhaps Nene would have made a difference, perhaps not. He's got potential, but Chaney wouldn't have played him as much as he got to play in Denver. So he would not have gotten as much development.

Amare is pretty amazing. Not only did almost no scouts put him high on their lists, allowing him to slip to 9th pick, but he's the ROY and has made the greatest first-season impact any player out of HS has ever made. That's huge. Sure, roast Layden on that one, but roast the other GM's as well. He got passed over by a lot of teams that really need a quality big man. Just incredible.

I agree that this season was a waste, and the one before it, and the one before that. I was relieved when Ewing left. I remember in the 97-98 season thinking "he's so much slower, even crappy centers can defend his fadeaway move". After the Y2K season, when he left, I thought, "Now is the time to start over and build a new team!"

But no, that schmuck Layden gives Houston an undeserved $100 million contract, and just spins his GM wheels, giving the league's highest-paying fans a different crap team every year. No bigtime players want to come here, because Layden overpaid too many other players and guaranteed years and years of cap hell.

Next year could be better, but only if he at least puts together a roster of starters playing their real positions (we need a starting C and a starting SF, let KT play PF - if KT is traded, get another starting PF).

I don't care if we draft or trade the pick, as long as we end up with a real starting five come camp. It doesn't have to be an impressive five, but it has to be five guys who are playing their rightful positions. Playing Spree at SF (as good as he can be) and Camby at center (puhleeze) was bad enough. Then, to start KT as C (even as hard as he played) was just too much. It's not fair to the players, it's not fair to the coach, it's not fair to the fans.
Explosive23
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4/25/2003  12:53 PM
Posted by Vmart:

Wallace was lottery pick

Ben Wallace wasn't drafted..
Vmart
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4/25/2003  1:22 PM
Posted by Explosive23:
Posted by Vmart:

Wallace was lottery pick

Ben Wallace wasn't drafted..

Get out talk about a diamond in the ruff. Wow not drafted man I could of sworn he was a lottery pick of Washington. I guess I was wrong.
prodson
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4/25/2003  1:39 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

It's not fair to the players, it's not fair to the coach, it's not fair to the fans.
i have no idea what the new york knicks organization is doing. i have no idea why i am still a fan of this toilet bowl.
why is layden even a general manager. why is don chaney even a coach? why is clarence weatherspoon even in the nba?

what is the logic behind a lottery team trading lottery picks for players coming off knee surgery anyway? oh that's right the knicks don't feel as though they are a lottery team.

all the knicks have to show for the last two drafts is frank williams. and he can't even play.
all those years as a fan and now i'm the anti-knick. life is crazy aint it.
Vmart
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4/25/2003  2:02 PM
Posted by prodson:
Posted by DefAndReb:

It's not fair to the players, it's not fair to the coach, it's not fair to the fans.
i have no idea what the new york knicks organization is doing. i have no idea why i am still a fan of this toilet bowl.
why is layden even a general manager. why is don chaney even a coach? why is clarence weatherspoon even in the nba?

what is the logic behind a lottery team trading lottery picks for players coming off knee surgery anyway? oh that's right the knicks don't feel as though they are a lottery team.

all the knicks have to show for the last two drafts is frank williams. and he can't even play.

Its really hard to root for this team.
OasisBU
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4/25/2003  3:06 PM
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by OasisBU:

If this team had Nene or Amare - they would have made the playoffs ths year. Its that simple. Instead we have neither and a busted up PF who may never play again. This season was a waste. No playing time for Williams, and not a good draft position leaves the Knicks hands tied for yet another season.
honestly, Nene and Amare would have been on the bench this season in favor of Othella and Spoon. it's the truth. They might have more upside, but Othella and Spoon both "know" the game better. Are you telling me that Frank Williams doesn't have more upside and athleticism than Eisley or Ward right now, and if he started 30-40 games, or at least played, would have learned more? You do learn and prove a lot in practice, but as a Point Guard, Center, and PF, you really learn in a lot in actual game situations.


Yes I dont disagree with you, they would have gotten no playing time, maybe a little but nothing special. However, I would rather have one of them in a NYK Uni and waiting to explode on the court rather then sit here and watch the Knicks deteriorate further.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Vmart
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4/25/2003  3:18 PM
Posted by OasisBU:
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by OasisBU:

If this team had Nene or Amare - they would have made the playoffs ths year. Its that simple. Instead we have neither and a busted up PF who may never play again. This season was a waste. No playing time for Williams, and not a good draft position leaves the Knicks hands tied for yet another season.
honestly, Nene and Amare would have been on the bench this season in favor of Othella and Spoon. it's the truth. They might have more upside, but Othella and Spoon both "know" the game better. Are you telling me that Frank Williams doesn't have more upside and athleticism than Eisley or Ward right now, and if he started 30-40 games, or at least played, would have learned more? You do learn and prove a lot in practice, but as a Point Guard, Center, and PF, you really learn in a lot in actual game situations.


Yes I dont disagree with you, they would have gotten no playing time, maybe a little but nothing special. However, I would rather have one of them in a NYK Uni and waiting to explode on the court rather then sit here and watch the Knicks deteriorate further.

Knowing the Knicks they would have found a fault with their game and let them rot on the bench. Until they develope a player I'm not going to think they can. Its like Dice's knee you have to take a wait and see attitude.
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