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lame excuses (article)
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djsunyc
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4/22/2007  11:52 AM
LAME EXCUSES
By MIKE VACCARO


IT GOES BOTH WAYS:Yes, the Knicks could have
won more games had Stephon Marbury (left),
Jamal Crawford (middle) and David Lee stayed
healthy. But it's also true they won a lot of
game against teams that were missing their stars.


April 22, 2007 -- BOSTON - Apparently, if not for the "I" word, we would be preparing ourselves for some kind of special basketball extravaganza at Madison Square Garden this week. Apparently, if not for injuries, the Knicks were fully revved, fully prepared to take a weed whacker to the rest of the NBA's Eastern Conference.

"I think it's pretty safe to say had we not been so decimated, things would be different tonight," Thomas said the other night, a few minutes after the Knicks' season ended in Charlotte. "But that being said, we would like to have had a better finish. I feel pretty comfortable and confident in saying that, had we not been hit by the injuries the way we'd been hit, I think it's safe to say we would have squeezed out at least six-to-seven more wins and we'd be sitting in a totally different position."

There's a problem with that line of thinking, and it's a simple one: If Thomas or anyone else wants to put an asterisk next to all the games the Knicks may have lost due to their depleted lineup - certainly his prerogative, certainly anyone's prerogative, if that's how they want to go about things - then you also have to do a corresponding exercise.

You need to stamp an asterisk next to the two games the Knicks beat the Grizzlies without Pau Gasol. You need to put one next to the game they beat the Shaq-less Heat, and another next to the game they beat the Dwyane-less Heat. Don't forget beating the Nuggets without Kenyon Martin, or the Hawks without Joe Johnson, or the Magic without Grant Hill, or the Lakers without Kobe (who was suspended that night, but the point is the same). Don't forget beating the Warriors without Stephen Jackson, or even the Bucks, against whom they needed that Eddy Curry miracle even without Charlie Villanueva and Andrew Bogut.

Here's the two-word reality that stands as law in professional sports: Injuries happen. They are a fact of life. They are a byproduct of a physical landscape in which gifted, physical men occasionally come in contact with each other, with a floor, with artificial turf, with an outfield fence, with hamstrings that pop and ankles that snap and knees that get shredded and vertebrae that inflame.

It's difficult to blame Isiah for reminding us what might have been if the Knicks had been able to play David Lee and Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford and Stephon Marbury for 82 games. It's hard to be a Knicks fan and not wonder what could have been if Nate Robinson could have been kept in street clothes, if Steve Francis could have been set adrift, if Malik Rose wasn't playing crunch-time minutes night after night.

But those are just fun and games, like real-time Strat-O-Matic.

Injuries happen. They happened to the Nets, who somehow managed to reach .500 despite missing Nenad Krstic for most of the year and Richard Jefferson for almost two months. They happened to the Heat, who only lost one surefire Hall of Famer (Shaq) and one projected Hall of Famer (Wade) and ground their way to the playoffs.

They happened to the Yankees last year, one a week at times, and it didn't halt that train even a little bit (until October anyway). They happen. They must be dealt with.

To Isiah's credit, he never allowed the Knicks to feel sorry for themselves, to play the undermanned card even a little bit in their own minds. If you allow that to happen, you wind up with the 1999 Jets, a team that was a consensus pick to make it to the Super Bowl and then lost Vinny Testaverde about 15 seconds into the season, his Achilles snapping on the soft Meadowlands turf like a dried-out twig.

That was only a small part of the Jets' problems, though. The greater one was the light that immediately extinguished in Bill Parcells' eyes. When he saw Vinny on the ground, when he saw him wheeled off on a gurney, he saw his last best shot at the Super Bowl crumbling. It took him weeks to recover, by which point the season was already lost. When he regained interest, the Jets made a furious recovery, finished 8-8, probably should have finished better, even with a second-string quarterback. But Parcells, who spent his career haranguing players for using injuries as an excuse, found out first-hand that what he'd been preaching wasn't pap. It was truth.

Mets fans wear their knuckles out now, knocking wood, hoping that Jose Reyes and David Wright remain upright for 162 games, to say nothing of the geriatric wing of the team. Rangers fans do the same, realizing that a re-run of Jaromir Jagr wincing in pain could make this splendid playoff push seem a lot less feel-good in about 15 minutes. Injuries happen. And when they do, it isn't only the injured who feel the hurt.

Maybe the Knicks can prove Isiah right. Maybe they can stay healthy next year. And maybe that's the difference between having to clean out their lockers in the middle of April as opposed to the middle of May. It would be nice to find out. But someone's going to get hurt. Injuries happen. It's how you respond to them that tells the larger part of the story.

Mike Vaccaro's e-mail address is michael.vaccaro@nypost.com. His book, "1941: The Greatest Year in Sports," will be in bookstores June 5 and can be preordered at www.amazon.com.
AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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4/22/2007  11:55 AM
one question, let's say we are on pace to win 40-42 games next season, but then someone gets hurt with a week to go and we miss the playoffs by 1 game. is isiah still allowed to bring up injuries as a reason why they missed the playoffs? is this excuse used up this season or can he continue to use it for the duration of his stay?

the culture of the organization, imho, is NOT changing. if dolan is crediting the team for "not throwing in the towel" when they "could have" or isiah is saying he got "everything he possible could have" out of the team but lay it all on injuries, while saying lb cost them a season, then NOTHING about the culture is changing. NOTHING. more pass-the-buck type talking and a twisted way of looking for "evident" progress. but that's just my opinion.
nixluva
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4/22/2007  12:08 PM
I think in THIS CASE we can use the injury excuse, because of the timing and number of the injuries. We had just finished our best month and March was a month we had 8 home games and we had been playing very well at home. I think we could've done very well in March if we had a bit more good health. Not to say PERFERCT health, but not as bad as it got for us. The guys we lost were VERY important to how we played. You can't just ignore that and throw a bunch of guys in there and not think it's gonna mess up what we do.

Those guys were all averaging 30+ for a reason. They were 3 of our best players and we really never got much out of Frye or Jared. Perhaps if they played better this year we might have won just enough to stay in it, but they didn't and the young guys we had to rely on lacked the experience we needed. Every night it was basically 2 against 5. Steph and Curry were the only dependable guys we had. Thank goodness Balkman and Collins improved as the season went along. That's the one GOOD thing that came out of this. Also the added stress of trying to make up for all the lost scoring and such had an effect on Steph who was already aching.

The problem I have with trying to say that you can't use the injuries as an excuse is that we can see evidence that when other teams lost key players at the same time they all had similar dips in performance. NOK and Wash, both lost a lot of games when they lost 2 key players at the same time. With the Knicks, we're not talking about a very good team to begin with. We needed as many of our better players as possible down the stretch. If we could've had at least 2 of those guys I think it would make a huge difference.
BasketballJones
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4/22/2007  3:25 PM
This is pretty unfair. The Knicks have been decimated, first by Layden, Eisley, Anderson, Weatherspoon, et. al., then by Larry Brown. On top of these things (from which they've yet to fully recover) they have had to endure both injuries and the home fans booing them.

Once they've had a few years to recover from these things and reeducate the fans to understand that 33 wins is a significant accomplishment for this franchise, things will be much better.

So long as there are no further injuries or other adverse conditions.
https:// It's not so hard.
Anji
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4/22/2007  4:21 PM

I love this pic.... I hope that is the Face I see on LaserBUry when Collins is taking his minutes.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
newyorknewyork
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4/22/2007  6:29 PM
While Injuries did have a huge impact on our final stretch of the season. And I can probably strongly say that Injuries had more impact than anything else on why we failed down the stretch to make the playoffs last season.

Isiah is still not allowed to use it as an excuse even if it was the reason. Because of what he spent to get Marbury, Jefferies, Frye & Curry. With what Isiah used to get those players who were healthy for a lot of the stretch we should have still made playoffs.

So yes Injuries probably derailed the end of the season for us. But Isiah can't use that as an excuse because he spent so much to acquire those players. If he spent less to get those players and used the extra picks he spent to acquire better players than James & Jefferies & Rose we would have made the playoffs.
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Bonn1997
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4/22/2007  7:21 PM
Younger players tend to stay healthier on average. Maybe if we had the players from the four draft picks we gave up in previous drafts to get Curry and Marbury health wouldn't have been an issue! Maybe if Isiah had used the past three MLEs on competent players, health wouldn't have been an issue.
sebstar
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4/22/2007  9:37 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Younger players tend to stay healthier on average. Maybe if we had the players from the four draft picks we gave up in previous drafts to get Curry and Marbury health wouldn't have been an issue! Maybe if Isiah had used the past three MLEs on competent players, health wouldn't have been an issue.

The Knicks or should I say the Knicks foundation, is an old one???
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bonn1997
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4/22/2007  9:46 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Younger players tend to stay healthier on average. Maybe if we had the players from the four draft picks we gave up in previous drafts to get Curry and Marbury health wouldn't have been an issue! Maybe if Isiah had used the past three MLEs on competent players, health wouldn't have been an issue.

The Knicks or should I say the Knicks foundation, is an old one???
I'd say it's average in age or slightly older than average if you're talking about the guys who get the most minutes. Like any team, we obviously have a few young players though.
islesfan
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4/22/2007  11:15 PM
After the extension was signed and injuries had yet to be used as an excuse, the Knicks would have had to go 12-7 to have finished ahead of the Magic.

Show me where the Knicks had gone 12-7 when they were healthy.

Injuries aren't the reason why they didn't make the playoffs. But the spin doctors are going to tell you that they are.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Anji
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4/23/2007  12:05 AM
We beat the Magic at home and we don't to go 12-7. A healthly knicks team that was 29-34 only has to go 10-9 because we beat up the Magic all season and very well should have won when we were mostly playing our bench....................Blah

[Edited by - anji on 04-23-2007 12:09 AM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
anrst
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4/23/2007  12:20 AM
[You need to stamp an asterisk next to the two games the Knicks beat the Grizzlies without Pau Gasol. You need to put one next to the game they beat the Shaq-less Heat, and another next to the game they beat the Dwyane-less Heat. Don't forget beating the Nuggets without Kenyon Martin, or the Hawks without Joe Johnson, or the Magic without Grant Hill, or the Lakers without Kobe (who was suspended that night, but the point is the same). Don't forget beating the Warriors without Stephen Jackson, or even the Bucks, against whom they needed that Eddy Curry miracle even without Charlie Villanueva and Andrew Bogut.

BRILLIANT

islesfan
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4/23/2007  12:26 AM
Posted by Anji:

We beat the Magic at home and we don't to go 12-7. A healthly knicks team that was 29-34 only has to go 10-9 because we beat up the Magic all season and very well should have won when we were mostly playing our bench....................Blah

[Edited by - anji on 04-23-2007 12:09 AM]

How many times did the Knicks beat teams that were missing key players to injury? Do we get to take those wins back because they "should" have beaten the Knicks if they were at full strength?

You know it works both ways, not just the way it makes the Knicks look better.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Solace
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4/23/2007  1:09 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

one question, let's say we are on pace to win 40-42 games next season, but then someone gets hurt with a week to go and we miss the playoffs by 1 game. is isiah still allowed to bring up injuries as a reason why they missed the playoffs? is this excuse used up this season or can he continue to use it for the duration of his stay?

No excuses. We're talking about the 8th seed here. Making the 8th seed or missing it by one game "due to injuries", honestly gets a "who the f cares" from me, since to me they are equivalent. Injuries can be discussed by GOOD teams. We're pretty awful WITH everyone healthy, so no injury excuses.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Anji
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4/23/2007  1:46 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Anji:

We beat the Magic at home and we don't to go 12-7. A healthly knicks team that was 29-34 only has to go 10-9 because we beat up the Magic all season and very well should have won when we were mostly playing our bench....................Blah

[Edited by - anji on 04-23-2007 12:09 AM]

How many times did the Knicks beat teams that were missing key players to injury? Do we get to take those wins back because they "should" have beaten the Knicks if they were at full strength?

You know it works both ways, not just the way it makes the Knicks look better.

Who said to take anything back??? You tryed to say we would not have won if we had all our players anyway because we had to go 12-7 and I should that was FALSE.

YOur new question is how many times did the Knicks beat teams that were missing Key players, don't know.......... is 6 an good enough answer???? Never said the Knicks Should beat any one team. But as a fan of the knicks I can tell from were the season was when Lee, Crawford and Q went down at the same time(Key players, not player) I believe we would have made the playoffs.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
islesfan
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4/23/2007  1:57 AM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Anji:

We beat the Magic at home and we don't to go 12-7. A healthly knicks team that was 29-34 only has to go 10-9 because we beat up the Magic all season and very well should have won when we were mostly playing our bench....................Blah

[Edited by - anji on 04-23-2007 12:09 AM]

How many times did the Knicks beat teams that were missing key players to injury? Do we get to take those wins back because they "should" have beaten the Knicks if they were at full strength?

You know it works both ways, not just the way it makes the Knicks look better.

Who said to take anything back??? You tryed to say we would not have won if we had all our players anyway because we had to go 12-7 and I should that was FALSE.

YOur new question is how many times did the Knicks beat teams that were missing Key players, don't know.......... is 6 an good enough answer???? Never said the Knicks Should beat any one team. But as a fan of the knicks I can tell from were the season was when Lee, Crawford and Q went down at the same time(Key players, not player) I believe we would have made the playoffs.

What? How is that false? By automatically giving the Knicks a win against the Magic instead of their actual loss?

Yeah, you really showed me there.

My new question is in response to people assuming that if the Knicks were at full strength then they would have automatically won certain games. Well it works both ways. If some teams had been at full strength, one could say that the outcomes of certain games against the Knicks would have been different.

You can believe in whatever you want but there's nothing to show that that would have been the case.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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4/23/2007  2:47 AM
I'm so tired of hearing how terrible the knicks are. THEY AREN'T TERRIBLE!!! This team may be mediocre when healthy, but that's not a permanent state. This is a mostly YOUNG team that has LOTS of room to grow. It's entirely realistic to expect that this team will improve as we move along and yet so many of us want to make it seem like the improvement will be minimal at best while every other teams chances are significantly better. Well why is that? What makes the Magic's prospects so much better? I think it's just more self hate. Around here it's fashionable to rag on the team and go overboard in making negative statements about the players.

The thing is that after the poor start in Nov. The team made a steady climb and there were no signs that it wouldn't have continued if not for the injuries. There was no sudden drop off in performance before the injuries, so what is the reason so many want to make it seem like this team couldn't have won enough games to get in the playoffs in this weak conference?
islesfan
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4/23/2007  2:59 AM
Posted by nixluva:


The thing is that after the poor start in Nov. The team made a steady climb and there were no signs that it wouldn't have continued if not for the injuries. There was no sudden drop off in performance before the injuries, so what is the reason so many want to make it seem like this team couldn't have won enough games to get in the playoffs in this weak conference?

No signs?

You mean other than the fact that they had completed the easiest part of their schedule, where they played 27 out of 35 games against under .500 teams, and were going to finish the season with almost half of their opponents at .500 or better?

Does strength of schedule mean anything to you? That's the reason why it's more likely than not that the Knicks wouldn't have won enough games to get into the playoffs, regardless of their injuries.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
lame excuses (article)

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