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Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson
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Ira
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2/13/2007  6:50 AM
Most people will agree that Michael Jordan was the best player in the history of the league. That's probably true. But it's not as close as some people think. A strong case can be made for Oscar Robertson. Here are a couple of stat links.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

First, let me say that both were great defensive players. I saw Robertson guarding Jerry West and no one could do it better. Jordan prided himself in his defense. So I think that cancels out. Defense is no issue.

Scoring, I'd give to Jordan. He averaged 31.5 points per game over his career compared to 25.3 for the big O. One could argue that the 3 point rule, which came into effect after Robertson retired, contributed to some of that difference.

While Jordan was a good passer, Oscar was a point guard and one of the best. He averaged 9.5 assists during his career and regularly was one of the league leaders.

Oscar was also a very good rebounder, particularly in his early years. In his second year in the league (1962) he averaged a triple double, with 30.8 points, 11.4 assists and 12.5 boards. That may have been the most amazing single season for any player ever.

Unfortunately, during his prime, he didn't have players of the caliber of Pippen and Grant/Rodman and a coach of the caliber of Phil Jackson. So the Cincinnati Royals never won anything. But the big O was one of the best players in the history of the league and can, at least, be compared to Michael Jordan.
AUTOADVERT
oohah
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2/13/2007  7:27 AM
I think its hard to compare eras. It sounds like you watched Robertson while I never did, but according to Clyde, Robertson never shot from more than 12-15 so I am not sure that he would have made up the scoring difference with long-range shots. From my own research I have seen that the superlative payers of yesteryear posted more dominant stats overall so I wonder if he would have scored slightly less in Jordan's Era..

In the end I think you have to look at the championships. Of course like you said, Robertson never had his Scottie Pippen (He had Kareem for a short while though). For some players it just never breaks just right.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  7:47 AM
imo robertson = jordan = russell. 3-way tie for best player ever.
bigbeast
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2/13/2007  8:28 AM
Posted by oohah:

I think its hard to compare eras. It sounds like you watched Robertson while I never did, but according to Clyde, Robertson never shot from more than 12-15 so I am not sure that he would have made up the scoring difference with long-range shots. From my own research I have seen that the superlative payers of yesteryear posted more dominant stats overall so I wonder if he would have scored slightly less in Jordan's Era..

In the end I think you have to look at the championships. Of course like you said, Robertson never had his Scottie Pippen (He had Kareem for a short while though). For some players it just never breaks just right.

oohah


Totally agree. The stats were very much inflated during Robertson/Chamberlain era. Robertson was unique during his time because he was a big guard (6'5 200-plus lbs). He easily overpowered smaller guards. Today, Robertson would be average size at best. In fact, Baron Davis, a pg, is about the same size if not bigger (body-type not size wise)than Robertson.

Its really hard to compare eras. Chamberlain and Russell were grabbing 40-50 rebs in games. Today, teams barely take more than 80 shots per which would make it impossible for anyone to get close to those numbers. I remember watching some footage on Wilt and it was like he was playing against high schoolers. 6'8 centers with limited athletic abilities had no shot against Wilt.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
oohah
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2/13/2007  8:58 AM
Its really hard to compare eras. Chamberlain and Russell were grabbing 40-50 rebs in games. Today, teams barely take more than 80 shots per which would make it impossible for anyone to get close to those numbers. I remember watching some footage on Wilt and it was like he was playing against high schoolers. 6'8 centers with limited athletic abilities had no shot against Wilt.

It's amazing how much taller the game has gotten, even since the time I have been watching from (Early '80s).

It seems like the NBA has scouts all over the world just looking for the tallest mothers they can spot. Then they throw some kicks and some shorts on him and see if they can create a basketball player. Sometimes it works!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  9:06 AM
the best players i ever saw from my early days of watching were:
g - robertson
g - west
c - russell
f - baylor
f - petit

this held up for a long time. gradually west was bumped to the 2nd team by jordan and petit by bird.

however i still believe that robertosn, russell and baylor hold up and still belong on the 1st team all-time. it would be quite a sight to see them in their prime competing in today's game.
oohah
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2/13/2007  9:27 AM
Posted by Marv:

the best players i ever saw from my early days of watching were:
g - robertson
g - west
c - russell
f - baylor
f - petit

this held up for a long time. gradually west was bumped to the 2nd team by jordan and petit by bird.

however i still believe that robertosn, russell and baylor hold up and still belong on the 1st team all-time. it would be quite a sight to see them in their prime competing in today's game.

Where is Wilt?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  9:39 AM
Posted by oohah:


Where is Wilt?

oohah

2nd team
Panos
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2/13/2007  9:43 AM
Magic?
Marv
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2/13/2007  9:44 AM
my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek
oohah
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2/13/2007  9:57 AM
Posted by Marv:

my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek

Can't we substitute in Duncan for Petit or Hondo?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  10:55 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Marv:

my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek

Can't we substitute in Duncan for Petit or Hondo?

oohah

hmmm. interesting. i love duncan. i guess personally i'd have to see where he fits when he's finished with his career.
bigbeast
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2/13/2007  10:57 AM
Posted by Marv:

my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek

Petit must have been one hack of a player. He's on your first and second team.

BTW, I'll take Magic over Oscar. Oscars numbers are inflated due to his era and Magic was a much bigger winner than Oscar. If it wasn't for Kareem, Oscar would have never won, and if it wasn't for Magic, Kareem would have never won more than one.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Nalod
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USA
2/13/2007  11:01 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Marv:

my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek

Can't we substitute in Duncan for Petit or Hondo?

oohah

hmmm. interesting. i love duncan. i guess personally i'd have to see where he fits when he's finished with his career.


Hondo was not a spectacular player by todays standards as he did nothing but play d, rebound, and was super clutch with a killer outside shot. All he did was win!

Petit was a scoring machine!

I think "Decade" squads make sense to capture the best of the era. Duncan is top 50 in most books for sure!

Marv, you have West down twice. Can we get some Clyde?
oohah
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2/13/2007  11:05 AM
I'm getting very worried about Marv's all-time squads.

We're going to have to sit down and figure out all the criteria, I mean, we got Kareem and Shaq getting pretty pissed over here on the sidelines!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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2/13/2007  11:08 AM
Petit must have been one hack of a player. He's on your first and second team.

Petit is a mystery to me, because he just hasn't gotten the pub with my generation like those other guys.

My Dad always has him on his top-ten, and he has told me how tough he was, how he could really get up, and this one story about him playing with a cast on his arm and still busting people's asses.

What's up with some Bob Petit youtube?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  11:31 AM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Marv:

my 2nd team is:
g - west
g - magic
c - wilt
f - petit
f - havlicek

Petit must have been one hack of a player. He's on your first and second team.

BTW, I'll take Magic over Oscar. Oscars numbers are inflated due to his era and Magic was a much bigger winner than Oscar. If it wasn't for Kareem, Oscar would have never won, and if it wasn't for Magic, Kareem would have never won more than one.

petit and west got bumped to the 2nd team. here's what my top 3 teams currently look like. this is always a fun game

1st team:
g - robertson
g - jordan
c - russell
f - baylor
f - bird

2nd team:
g - magic
g - west
c - chamberlain
f - havlicek
f - petit

3rd team
g - frazier
g - cousy
c - jabbar
f - erving
f - barry

i hear you about magic - it's hard to find a much bigger winner . but he wasn't flawless. he lost a lot more big games and series than he's necessarily remembered for. as great as he was, i just can't place him over oscar.
djsunyc
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2/13/2007  11:36 AM
my realm of bball viewing doesn't start until 1987 (the first day queens got cable).

so my starting 5 of all time (that i actually saw play) are as follows:

magic
jordan
kobe
hakeem
shaq
oohah
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2/13/2007  11:41 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

my realm of bball viewing doesn't start until 1987 (the first day queens got cable).

so my starting 5 of all time (that i actually saw play) are as follows:

magic
jordan
kobe
hakeem
shaq

Sorry, You can't have Hakeem and Shaq. Make the tough choices!

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 13-02-2007 11:41 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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2/13/2007  11:42 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Hondo was not a spectacular player by todays standards as he did nothing but play d, rebound, and was super clutch with a killer outside shot. All he did was win!

Petit was a scoring machine!

I think "Decade" squads make sense to capture the best of the era. Duncan is top 50 in most books for sure!

Marv, you have West down twice. Can we get some Clyde?

nalod is a registered 70's-celtics hater!
in the early 70's after russell retired they needed hondo to change his role and become even more of a dominant force. look at the seasons he put together:

70-71 28.9 ppg on 45%fg with 9 rpg and 7.5 apg.
71-72 27.5 ppg on 46%fg with 8.2 rpg and 7.5 apg.

along with the great d, super clutch ability and killer instinct that nalod noted. guy was a superstar, not just a cog in a great machine.
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Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson
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