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N Y Times - Isaiah held to a different standard than former Celtic players
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Ira
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2/9/2007  6:28 AM
Note - I can't link the full article, because I don't have N Y Times select. I hope it's ok to post it. If not, I'll understand if it's deleted. Araton makes some good points comparing Isaiah's problems with those of Bird, McHale and Ainge and wonders why they don't get torched by the national media.

LINK

February 9, 2007
Sports of The Times
Old Celtics Are Untainted by Failure
By HARVEY ARATON

Imagine if it were Isiah Thomas’s team that since November 2004 had led the N.B.A. in behavioral lines crossed, combinations of punches thrown and shots fired from an actual gun.

That team is the Indiana Pacers, whom he formerly coached, back in the news this week for more pugilistic misadventures, notwithstanding the alleged management of Larry Bird, a state native son who remains Teflon-coated, iconic clean.

Still playing by 1980s-era rules, it is obviously so much easier to beat up on a Motown Bad Boy than a sainted old Celtic.

This isn’t to say that Thomas’s reign at Madison Square Garden as the avowed but embattled Knicks savior hasn’t set its own unsavory standards and deserved the scrutiny. But when will the dots in Indianapolis be connected by the national news media? When will those habitually hand-swiped bottoms of Bird’s sneakers be held to the fire?

While it’s true that Bird ranks under Donnie Walsh, the longtime and widely respected Pacers’ chief executive, and has not had the sole authority that Thomas has enjoyed, his three and a half seasons as president of basketball operations have, in certain respects, been as turbulent as Thomas’s.

Remember how Bird swooped into town and within weeks replaced Thomas as the Pacers coach with Rick Carlisle, one of his favorite Celtics bench cheerleaders? The Pacers’ linchpin, Jermaine O’Neal, was in Puerto Rico that summer with a group of Larry Brown-coached N.B.A. stars, trying to qualify for the 2004 Summer Olympics. O’Neal was fit to be tied, if not traded, when Thomas was canned after O’Neal had signed a long-term contract with the presumption that Thomas would be his coach.

O’Neal was every bit the loyalist, as was Eddy Curry this week when commenting on the possible exit of Thomas from New York, which confirms Thomas as a sage mentor or skilled hypnotist.

It says here that Thomas never got enough credit for the groundwork he laid with a team in transition in Indiana, especially after Carlisle took the Pacers to the Eastern Conference finals the next spring. Carlisle was anointed a genius, blessed as he was by the Larry and his leprechauns, until Ron Artest charged into the stands months later on the road against Detroit, with Stephen Jackson in raging pursuit, dragging what had been one of the league’s more stable franchises into continuous chaos.

You can argue that Bird inherited Artest, except he stuck with him after his suspension and eventually had to trade him with compromised leverage. Peja Stojakovic, acquired for Artest, called Bird his idol upon joining the Pacers, but left town as a free agent first chance he got.

You can say that Jackson is plain trouble, but Bird traded for him and held onto him long enough for Jackson to embarrass the franchise again last October in a multiplayer nightclub incident starring Jackson in an adaptation of his on-court persona as designated gunner.

To an ever-changing roster and an increasingly mediocre team Bird obtained Marquis Daniels, one of three Pacers (Jamaal Tinsley and Keith McLeod were the others) under police investigation after a melee in another Indianapolis nightspot early Tuesday morning. (Daniels and Tinsley were also involved in the October scuffle.)

Not arrested or charged, the players have denied being in a fight hours after Jackson returned with Golden State for the first time Monday night after an eight-player deal and torched the Pacers for 36 points. What symmetry. Bob Kravitz of The Indianapolis Star surveyed the wreckage of the team’s reputation and called the Pacers “an embarrassment of an organization” in his column yesterday, adding that he would “rather be the Boston Celtics.”

Still playing by those 1980s-era rules, imagine if it were Thomas’s team that had dropped 36 of 48 games this season and 16 straight in Year 3 of a declared youth movement, and not a franchise under the direction of Danny Ainge.

Playing for weeks without their best player, Paul Pierce, better explains the Celtics’ franchise-record losing streak, but is there really any doubt that in the same period of time that Bird has been in Indiana, and a few months longer than Thomas has been in New York, that Ainge has done the worst job of the three.? Where is the national condemnation for collapsing the most storied N.B.A. franchise of all?

Ainge can only hope for enough rope to lasso one of the anticipated college draft studs, Greg Oden or Kevin Durant. The odds are he will get it because sainted old Celtics typically are given the benefit of the doubt, as Kevin McHale has proved in his home state of Minnesota.

Imagine if it were Thomas’s team that had only two playoff series victories to show for a decade with a superstar like Kevin Garnett, and not McHale’s. Imagine if Thomas had been caught circumventing the league’s salary cap and cost his team multiple first-round draft picks and $3.5 million, as McHale did in 2000.

What would be an unpardonable blunder for Thomas and probably for most became a short leave of absence for McHale, who is now one of the most tenured executives in a league in which even Michael Jordan got fired. We rest our case.
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babyKnicks
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2/9/2007  7:19 AM
we've been trying to get a little levity here from the fans of isiah's team and it's near impossible.

and yet, the knicks still have a better future than those three teams.

also, where's that "orlando is waaaay better than the knicks" thread?
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TheGame
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2/9/2007  7:37 AM
Good article and it shows you how some people get a pass, for whatever reason, while guys like IT get called out for every little thing. IT has not been a great GM to be sure, but he has not been the worst GM in the league as some people have put it. How Kevin McHale still has a job is incredible, and Bird has not done anything other than draft Danny Granger. Ainge has added some pieces but traded for Telfair, which was one of the dumbest draft day trades ever. Not saying we should accept anything but excellence from our GM, but at the same time, people should recognize that IT has not done as bad a job as it is perceived.
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joec32033
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2/9/2007  7:41 AM
To be fair it is a true wonder that McHale even has a job anymore.
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PresIke
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2/9/2007  8:08 AM
Most of this article raises some valid questions, and there is a not so subtle implication about a touchy issue by comparing Isiah to former Celtic players who are GMs/Presidents. If you compare Isiah to Ainge, I think the argument is strongest since his team has not done anything in the three years he has been there. McHale's length of tenure + Garnett is also quite criticizable, although they made the conference finals two years ago. As for Bird, while Isiah may have not been given enough of an opportunity on Indiana to see what they could do with him, the team has been a decent squad in the NBA, although arguably disappointing in terms of performance, but the off-court problems which have led to trades and other problems are worth critiquing.

I think that it isn't only about Isiah or the other implication I referred to earlier, but the fact that this is New York and the media coverage excacerbates things, as well as fans who consistently hold high expectations based on the payroll. If Ainge's Celtics were in NY I'd bet that he would be brutalized by the press. Bird and McHale would certainly be criticized by some writers, at least, but possibly defended by some. However, I doubt McHale would have ever lasted as long as he has had he been in NY.

[Edited by - PresIke on 02-09-2007 08:10 AM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
TMS
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2/9/2007  9:45 AM
Posted by TheGame:

Good article and it shows you how some people get a pass, for whatever reason, while guys like IT get called out for every little thing. IT has not been a great GM to be sure, but he has not been the worst GM in the league as some people have put it. How Kevin McHale still has a job is incredible, and Bird has not done anything other than draft Danny Granger. Ainge has added some pieces but traded for Telfair, which was one of the dumbest draft day trades ever. Not saying we should accept anything but excellence from our GM, but at the same time, people should recognize that IT has not done as bad a job as it is perceived.

agreed 100%
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Solace
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2/9/2007  9:47 AM
Posted by babyKnicks:

and yet, the knicks still have a better future than those three teams.

I disagree. I think the Pacers and Celtics are clearly in better position. The Wolves aren't... yet, but if they trade KG and a get a nice group of young talent, they could be.
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babyKnicks
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2/9/2007  9:52 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by babyKnicks:

and yet, the knicks still have a better future than those three teams.

I disagree. I think the Pacers and Celtics are clearly in better position. The Wolves aren't... yet, but if they trade KG and a get a nice group of young talent, they could be.

if buying a lottery ticket puts the celtics in better position, then I disagree. Looking at the rosters (payroll aside) we are in a much better position than the celtics.

pacers are all but done. they have to start over...you just aren't seeing it.
They are where the knicks were during van gundy's last years.
perenial playoff disappointments.

Do you feel they have a shot at all this year?
Next year? The Next Year?

Keep in mind the knicks youth will only be getting better.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
TMS
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2/9/2007  9:54 AM
just curious Solace, how exactly are the Pacers in a better position? they have players getting into off the court troubles left & right & a franchise player who is starting to express his desire to win now or to go elsewhere... they have a GM who hasn't exactly drafted the greatest of talent over the past few years (Granger the exception).

& the Celtics? unless they get Greg Oden, they're not getting better for a few years minimum... their cap situation will be complicated once their rookies become RFA's, so they have some difficult decisions to make in the coming years... & Danny Ainge is a horrible GM in his own right.

i don't see how those teams are so much better off than the Knicks at this point.
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babyKnicks
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2/9/2007  9:57 AM
Posted by TMS:

just curious Solace, how exactly are the Pacers in a better position? they have players getting into off the court troubles left & right & a franchise player who is starting to express his desire to win now or to go elsewhere... they have a GM who hasn't exactly drafted the greatest of talent over the past few years (Granger the exception).

& the Celtics? unless they get Greg Oden, they're not getting better for a few years minimum... their cap situation will be complicated once their rookies become RFA's, so they have some difficult decisions to make in the coming years... & Danny Ainge is a horrible GM in his own right.

i don't see how those teams are so much better off than the Knicks at this point.

I scratched my head as well, what are you even rooting for with the knicks if these two franchises are in a better position than us.

you should probably abandon ship now, because this is as good as it gets.
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TMS
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2/9/2007  9:59 AM
i phrased that last post wrong... instead of the Celtics "rookie" players i meant to say their "young players"... Delonte West, Al Jefferson, Sebastian Telfair, Tony Allen & Ryan Gomes will all become RFA's after next season i believe... that leaves very little wiggle room if any to sign any impact players to add to that team.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-09-2007 10:00 AM]
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Solace
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2/9/2007  10:06 AM
Well first off the Pacers still have Jermaine O'Neal and Ike Diogu. I would take that combo over any combo we have. The Celtics young core I like a lot and they will continue to improve via the draft. They have high school kids who are going to take another 2-3 years to near their potential. Eddy Curry was argued for having that kind of patience; they deserve it too. The Knicks are in no-man's land, IMHO. Too good to get a high lottery pick anymore. Not good enough to make a threat at even the conference finals. I don't mean this year or next... I mean the direction that this ship is going, this is pretty much our team. Lee has been excellent, but if our core is Curry (No D), Lee and Marbury (IMHO not a winner), I think other teams are in better shape.


[Edited by - Solace on Feb 09 2007 10:26 AM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
TMS
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2/9/2007  10:17 AM
Ike Diogu over Curry or D Lee? man, you're seriously biased there bro... what has Diogu proven in this league that puts him over those 2 in your eyes?

as for the Celtics, i'm not disagreeing w/u that they have some good young talent... so do we for that matter... that team is not going to be competitive for at least 4-5 years IMO... are the Knicks just going to stand pat while the Celtics continue to improve?
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TheGame
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2/9/2007  10:19 AM
I like the Knicks' future. IT will continue to work with Curry, Lee, Frye, and Balkman to develop their games. After next season, we will have three large expiring contracts. We let 2 of the 3 expire and use the third to add some missing pieces. If our young players continue to develop, we should have a fairly solid team in a couple of years.
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Solace
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2/9/2007  10:25 AM
Posted by TMS:

Ike Diogu over Curry or D Lee? man, you're seriously biased there bro... what has Diogu proven in this league that puts him over those 2 in your eyes?

as for the Celtics, i'm not disagreeing w/u that they have some good young talent... so do we for that matter... that team is not going to be competitive for at least 4-5 years IMO... are the Knicks just going to stand pat while the Celtics continue to improve?

Are you saying that wouldn't take Jermaine and Diogu over Curry and Lee? Because that's what I was saying. Other than those guys, IMHO, Frye sucks (would take Murphy over him), Nate is a retard, Balkman is a nice ROLEplayer, and the others aren't good enough to get us over our other deficiences.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
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2/9/2007  10:42 AM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by babyKnicks:

and yet, the knicks still have a better future than those three teams.

I disagree. I think the Pacers and Celtics are clearly in better position. The Wolves aren't... yet, but if they trade KG and a get a nice group of young talent, they could be.

if buying a lottery ticket puts the celtics in better position, then I disagree. Looking at the rosters (payroll aside) we are in a much better position than the celtics.

pacers are all but done. they have to start over...you just aren't seeing it.
They are where the knicks were during van gundy's last years.
perenial playoff disappointments.

Do you feel they have a shot at all this year?
Next year? The Next Year?

Keep in mind the knicks youth will only be getting better.

RE: celtics

think ahead a year. even if they don't get oden or durant, compare our rosters- them plus a top-5 pick, us plus a high-teens pick. they'll pick up some ground there talent-wise, i'd imagine. i also see a big trade coming, a few young players for a good vet. it really has to happen- i don't see how that team can continue with three young PGs etc.

the celtics are a **** sandwich right now, it'll be interesting to see how they shape up as a division rival in the nest year or two. i have little respect for ainge as a GM, but he has a lot of pieces to work with, more than IT so we'll see.

not sold on the pacers either. they've got some good players, but the big trade gave them some horrible contracts. they have a ceiling, and i don't know if they have enough pieces to improve a lot. the o'neal situation will be interesting in the near future...
islesfan
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2/9/2007  11:16 AM
I don't get it. Who said that McHale was doing a good job and didn't deserve to get fired? If he got canned today absolutely nobody would be saying that it wasn't deserved. So what's the point of comparing Isiah to him?

Since Isiah has been here the Pacers have been to the Conf Finals, the 2nd rd the following year and could have done better if not for the Malice at the Palace and then lost in the 1st rd last year in 6 games. This year they're obviously trying to retool and are most likely playoff bound again. How does that record compare to the Knicks in the same time period?? Granted, it's not much, but if Isiah's Knicks had that kind of "success" people here would be raising hell if someone compared Isiah to a GM with Isiah's actual record as Knicks GM.

Ainge is this close to being in Isiah's category. His saving grace is that he has his lottery pick this year, is tanking to try to max that pick, has a superstar, has better roster flexibility because he's not hopelessly capped out and has good young players.

This article is dumb. It basically comes down to, "We know Isiah has done a bad job but other GM's, who happen to be former Celtics, haven't done a great job either so we shouldn't hold Isiah accountable because they haven't".
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
PresIke
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2/9/2007  11:23 AM
The point is that it seems that Isiah gets far more media attention than the other three in terms of criticism. It doesn't mean or imply that Isiah has done the best job or excuse any mistakes. That's not sound logic. What it suggests is that there is a double standard.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
islesfan
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2/9/2007  11:26 AM
Posted by PresIke:

The point is that it seems that Isiah gets far more media attention than the other three in terms of criticism. It doesn't mean or imply that Isiah has done the best job or excuse any mistakes. That's not sound logic. What it suggests is that there is a double standard.

Wait, there's more media attention in NY than there is in places like Indiana and Minnesota?? Wow, never would have thunk it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
joec32033
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2/9/2007  11:35 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by PresIke:

The point is that it seems that Isiah gets far more media attention than the other three in terms of criticism. It doesn't mean or imply that Isiah has done the best job or excuse any mistakes. That's not sound logic. What it suggests is that there is a double standard.

Wait, there's more media attention in NY than there is in places like Indiana and Minnesota?? Wow, never would have thunk it.

beat me to it.
~You can't run from who you are.~
N Y Times - Isaiah held to a different standard than former Celtic players

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