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Defending Jeffries......
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bigbeast
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1/25/2007  8:39 AM
Hard to defend JJ2 (and its been even harder for him to defend for himself on and off the court) but I think Isiahs blunder was overvaluing his own roster and fooling himself into beliveing that JJ2 could be the missing piece on a flawed team. JJ2 is the same player he's always been, but his intagibles are useless and unnoticed most of the time on a losing team.

Similar to Malik Rose when he played for San An. When Malik played for the Spurs, and he would pull his "pulling out the chair from the offensive player" move and cause a traveling, it was usually a big play for the Spurs because they played in tight games against elite teams where every possession counted. A play like that and other hustle plays that Malik can provide gave the Spurs an extra possesion which could have helped them put the game away. Doesn't mean as much when Rose dose it for us when we are down double digits. Doesn't have the same impact on the game.

JJ2 is in the same boat. He's no lock down defender, but can come up with a key block, or the reach of his long arms could make a smaller SF take a tough shot which may come up short. These are good intagibles to have on a team, but on a winning team where every possesion is critical. I like to believe that JJ2 was responsible for Vince misfiring on that shot down the stretch. But it went unnoticed because Curry didn't finish the play by securing the rebound. If JJ2 makes a similar play in a Dallas uniform against Tmac in the playoffs, and Dampier or Dirk secrue the rebound, you can hear the preacher-man Avery Johnson praising JJ2 for the hustle effort. He would be the missing piece on a winning team (like Dallas)thats battling for a championship that maybe 1 or 2 extra possesions away from winning it all. Thats mainly what JJ2 is good for. He can give his team a couple of extra possessions.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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TheGame
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1/25/2007  9:03 AM
Good, we should send him to Dallas.

Seriously, you make good points but at the same time, Jeffries has to bring more. You cannot be an NBA starting caliber SF and not be able to hit an open jump shot or free throw.

[Edited by - TheGame on 01-25-2007 09:05 AM]
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Elite
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1/25/2007  9:15 AM
my thing is i was under the impression that he was a lock down defender. if hes not.. why did we pay him so much
TMS
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1/25/2007  9:48 AM
he's a bench role player... i wouldn't mind him so much if he weren't stealing playing time away from guys like D Lee & Balkman who i think are much bigger contributors.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MS
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1/25/2007  9:51 AM
Isiah should lose his job for not playing balkman, i frankly love the kid and he is active and gets his hands on shots and is a great role player off the bench, can finish with a game changing dunk, just love the little things he brings.....
Bippity10
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1/25/2007  10:58 AM
Great post BigBeast. This is what I've been saying for years. We are going out using our resources on role players when we don't have a foundation yet. JJ was touted as a defensive stopper. Not because he was. But because it would get the fan base excited. Now here JJ is doing exactly what he's done most of his career and we are disappointed. The result is the guy now has pressure on himself to be some type of savior because that's what he was touted to be.

Until we have a plan. Find a foundation and build around it, we will continue to bring in good role players that have no affect on our winning and losing. And we will continue to boo them for doing exactly what their talent says they should be doing.
I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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1/25/2007  1:06 PM

Bigbeast you are making some valid points and JJ2 was the same exact player today that he was in Washington...He was never a lock down defender and I'm often confused when people expect this from him...JJ2 is a luxury player to have...JJ would have been a more valued asset if Fyre game stepped up to where it should be...Had Frye been more effective drawing more attention then JJ'g game would be more valued with the tip in and the occasional blocks...

Right now because our starting front line isn't getting it done defensively or rebounding wise..JJs game is exposed for what it is...He is a modern day Phil Jackson that can run the floor..I think the Knicks need JJ unfortunately..In this lineup he isn't 25 min per game player...He is more like a 15 min per game type guy...

The issue is that you really can have him and DLee on the floor at the same time...So right now I think Isiah has to bench him and start Lee at the three and work that based on the opposing team's lineup...If Isiah starts Lee in place of Frye then Q has to move to the three and JCraw starts...But Lee and JJ on the floor together is jsut a recipe for disaster..
djsunyc
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1/25/2007  1:09 PM
isiah thought this team was going to run "the quick" offense. and everybody was gushing over it in preseason. that was over with the quickness (pun intended). he figures jeffries would play some point forward make some passes into the post and come off of some back cuts.

but now, we're a dump it down to the post team that is playing zone defense more often that not. how exactly does jeffries fit into that kind of scheme?

poor signing which never should've been allowed by dolan to begin with and again, a lack of understanding of his team and how they work together.
islesfan
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1/25/2007  1:14 PM
I say the same thing in the Feeling Sorry for Jeffries thread and I'm just a hater. bigbeast starts a thread with is and it's a valid point.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
holfresh
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1/25/2007  1:18 PM

The quick offense came into play depending on how Francis and Marbury gelled...The quick offense was abandoned after Francis didn't work out...Curry was the next logical choice...The problem with this team is defense, and our front line is just killing us right now...Until they make a commitment to play defense and rebound (Curry and Frye)..The Knicks won't take the next step..
Bippity10
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1/25/2007  1:19 PM
allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.

I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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1/25/2007  1:22 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.


but what if we start david lee?
TMS
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1/25/2007  1:28 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.


the same is being done to Curry... the fact that the Knicks gave up so much to get him has raised all their expectations for him to become something that they should know he isn't... on top of dominating in the paint, they expect him to grab 12 rebounds a game, block 2 shots a game, & be a younger version of Shaq
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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1/25/2007  1:30 PM
way to downplay his #'s tms. i'm expecting 30/20/10 with 5 assists. anything less and he's a bust.
islesfan
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1/25/2007  1:31 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bippity10:

allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.


the same is being done to Curry... the fact that the Knicks gave up so much to get him has raised all their expectations for him to become something that they should know he isn't... on top of dominating in the paint, they expect him to grab 12 rebounds a game, block 2 shots a game, & be a younger version of Shaq

Actually I expect Curry to show effort, desire and hustle on defense and on the boards. Is that too much to ask?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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1/25/2007  1:47 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bippity10:

allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.


the same is being done to Curry... the fact that the Knicks gave up so much to get him has raised all their expectations for him to become something that they should know he isn't... on top of dominating in the paint, they expect him to grab 12 rebounds a game, block 2 shots a game, & be a younger version of Shaq

Actually I expect Curry to show effort, desire and hustle on defense and on the boards. Is that too much to ask?

case in point... you probably expected Allan Houston to do the same on defense & on the boards because of the salary he was making & discounted what you DID get out of him which was oustanding perimeter shooting & high FG %... you're doing the exact same thing w/Curry... you completely gloss over what he gives you on the offensive end & instead choose to harp on what he doesn't give you on the defensive end... if you know the guy isn't a strong defensive player, it's probably a more realistic approach to focus more on getting some defensive minded players to play around him to minimize his weaknesses instead of expecting him to transform himself into a player that he clearly isn't, wouldn't you say?

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TrueBlue
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1/25/2007  1:50 PM
I expect Curry to get doubles doubles regularly and put some kind of fear into opponents faces as they Waltz through the lane. Meanwhile let's just keep lowering the bar like we've always done.
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islesfan
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1/25/2007  1:54 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bippity10:

allanHouston spent 10 seasons as a jumpshooter. We give him 100 million dollars and all of a sudden half the fan base expects him to drive to the hoop, create for teammates, lock up the opposing teams best player. Dunk over Mutombo.

The story is the same with JJ2, just on a lesser scale. To me he is not a disappointment. He is doing what I expected. When all the booing blows over he will probably play a little better. Maybe help us win a game or two but will it really change who we are as a team?

When we fired Chaney did it change who were. When we fired Lenny? Fired LB? Boo'd Isiah? Bood' Marbs? signed JJ? Signed JJ2? acquired Mo or Jalen of Stevie? Nothing will change until we develop a foundation and then build around it with a balanced team that can defedn, rebound, score and hustle EVERY NIGHT!!!!!!!! Until this point 80% of our fan base will be bashing themselves over the head trying to find reasons as to why we aren't an elite team.


the same is being done to Curry... the fact that the Knicks gave up so much to get him has raised all their expectations for him to become something that they should know he isn't... on top of dominating in the paint, they expect him to grab 12 rebounds a game, block 2 shots a game, & be a younger version of Shaq

Actually I expect Curry to show effort, desire and hustle on defense and on the boards. Is that too much to ask?

case in point... you probably expected Allan Houston to do the same on defense & on the boards because of the salary he was making & discounted what you DID get out of him which was oustanding perimeter shooting & high FG %... you're doing the exact same thing w/Curry... you completely gloss over what he gives you on the offensive end & instead choose to harp on what he doesn't give you on the defensive end... if you know the guy isn't a strong defensive player, it's probably a more realistic approach to focus more on getting some defensive minded players to play around him to minimize his weaknesses instead of expecting him to transform himself into a player that he clearly isn't, wouldn't you say?

No, for a SG like Houston I would have expected an outstanding score and shooter. Same for a SF.

For a PG I'd expect someone who can score, dish and most importantly run an offense.

For a PF or C I'd expect someone who can score, rebound well and for a center, someone who can defend the paint.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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1/25/2007  2:12 PM
Posted by islesfan:

No, for a SG like Houston I would have expected an outstanding score and shooter. Same for a SF.

For a PG I'd expect someone who can score, dish and most importantly run an offense.

For a PF or C I'd expect someone who can score, rebound well and for a center, someone who can defend the paint.

let me ask you, why don't i ever hear you complain about David Lee's lack of a low post game, or his lack of defense? why in his case can you accept the fact that he's simply not that type of player, & yet kill Eddy Curry for not being the type of player he clearly isn't? it's because of the reason i set forth... we gave up a ton to get him so your expectations of him are raised to those levels, just like when people rag on Houston's lack of defense & rebounding after he signed that huge contract.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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1/25/2007  2:13 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

I expect Curry to get doubles doubles regularly and put some kind of fear into opponents faces as they Waltz through the lane. Meanwhile let's just keep lowering the bar like we've always done.

you're doing the exact opposite in raising the bar beyond a level that you already know Curry probably will never achieve, & yet continue to bemoan the fact that he'll never achieve it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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