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Elite
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1/23/2007  8:21 AM
"It was like the court was tilted," New York's David Lee said. "They were running downhill, and we were struggling to go uphill."

I have been saying for a while one of the biggest problems with our team is conditioning. Our guys just arent in shape.. Q rich is heavy, Malik Rose doesent even look like hes fit to make it up the court. Curry while he has lost weight is still 15 pounds too heavy... the list goes on.

Pat Riley wont let you PLAY on the heat unless you have something like 8% body fat... he suspended Walker and Posey for not making the cut. And you could tell last night, the main thing was these guys were in better shape than us, Williams and Payton were simply running by our guys all night.

Isiah said "nobody will ever say we're not in good condition" well im saying it. The knicks need a much more strict conditioning program
AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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1/23/2007  8:51 AM
I agree, but to me its deeper than that. One of the things I killed Isiah for was spending a ton of money to bring veteran guys in, none of which were from winning NBA programs or had a history of winning in this league.
Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Mo Taylor, Curry, Antonio Davis, Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas were all guys Isiah brought in making big money. Of those only Tim Thomas, Penny and Antonio had been a part of winning programs for any amount of time, and Antonio and Penny were obviously on thier way out (not in league).
Other key aquisitions: Jerome James, Crawford, Jared Jefferies, Nazr, Moochie... of all of those only JJSkinny had played in a +.500 system in Washington.

So guys like Holfresh like to absolve Isiah of responsibility by quoting the "Dolan mandate" and requirement to win now, but if your going to spend $250mm to bring in veteran players because you HAVE TO WIN NOW, wouldnt you focus on some guys that actually know how to win?

People constantly ignore this and just focus on stats or how much more 'talent' we have, but this is a big problem. There is a losing culture here, and its perpetuated by the coach/GM and the players he's brought in. So far Isiah has done nothing to change it, he's made it worse in fact.

So what you get is subpar efforts, guys not well conditioned, nights where guys look like they just dont feel like playing, and a $100mm + team that plays .400 ball
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Elite
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1/23/2007  9:02 AM
i wasent gunna go there fish but im not mad that u did lol
Rich
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1/23/2007  9:03 AM
I don't think that game was representative of anything.
fishmike
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1/23/2007  9:16 AM
ok.. how about the Nets game? Or that spanking from the Bobcats? We will just ignore the West coast games as they are simply better teams. How about getting blown out by the 76rs with no Iverson? Laying down at home for the Nuggets? Getting blown away at home by the Celtics -Wally and Perkins?

How far back should we go? Do those games represent anything?

Its one thing to get outplayed or a team gets hot, etc.

Can anyone here honestly say this team plays hard every night? That they come out ready to play?

WE HAVE 15 DOUBLE DIGIT LOSSES THIS YEAR.

Rich, does that represent anything?

Not trying to be an ass here (that happens naturally). But we have guys on this site that think Isiah should have 5 years, or that this is a playoff team, etc.

We dont even play hard every night. When things go our way the guys are happy and give some effort. But other nights its clear they are more than happy to mail it in.

Only Frye, QRich and Lee have given 100% from the start of the season. Marbury has of late. Frye's been terrible but he's playing out of position and I dont question his effort, just effectiveness.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rich
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1/23/2007  9:22 AM
Yes, they represent how a young team with talent deficiencies can produce inconsistent performances. Couple that with what are often poor substitution patterns, and you going to get some bad loses.

IMO, last night's loss was in a class by itself because of a total lack of effort early on.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-23-2007 09:22 AM]
fishmike
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1/23/2007  9:33 AM
Posted by Rich:

Yes, they represent how a young team with talent deficiencies can produce inconsistent performances. Couple that with what are often poor substitution patterns, and you going to get some bad loses.

IMO, last night's loss was in a class by itself because of a total lack of effort early on.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-23-2007 09:22 AM]
you know what Rich? I was going to go off on how bad our effort is on a nightly basis, but I will just agree with you, because essentially your 100% right. We arent talented enough and we are poorly coached.

Now what really sucks is that we have a slew of guys signed for 3 more years + so no cap space
No lottery pick this year
We still owe Utah/PHo another first rounder

hmmm... I smell extension

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rich
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1/23/2007  9:37 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Rich:

Yes, they represent how a young team with talent deficiencies can produce inconsistent performances. Couple that with what are often poor substitution patterns, and you going to get some bad loses.

IMO, last night's loss was in a class by itself because of a total lack of effort early on.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-23-2007 09:22 AM]
you know what Rich? I was going to go off on how bad our effort is on a nightly basis, but I will just agree with you, because essentially your 100% right. We arent talented enough and we are poorly coached.

Now what really sucks is that we have a slew of guys signed for 3 more years + so no cap space
No lottery pick this year
We still owe Utah/PHo another first rounder

hmmm... I smell extension

The only reason to keep Isiah as something other than a scout is if you believe that Curry will regress if he leaves (of course, all that presupposes that Dolan won't hire someone worse, which isn't inconceivable, imo).
MS
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1/23/2007  9:46 AM
Another reason why Isiah should be let go, why can Riley suspend his players for being in poor condition and Isiah has to put up with an out of shape jerome james....

Seriously couldn't they just send him into the d league until he gets in shape?
TMS
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1/23/2007  10:00 AM
Posted by Elite:

"It was like the court was tilted," New York's David Lee said. "They were running downhill, and we were struggling to go uphill."

I have been saying for a while one of the biggest problems with our team is conditioning. Our guys just arent in shape.. Q rich is heavy, Malik Rose doesent even look like hes fit to make it up the court. Curry while he has lost weight is still 15 pounds too heavy... the list goes on.

Pat Riley wont let you PLAY on the heat unless you have something like 8% body fat... he suspended Walker and Posey for not making the cut. And you could tell last night, the main thing was these guys were in better shape than us, Williams and Payton were simply running by our guys all night.

Isiah said "nobody will ever say we're not in good condition" well im saying it. The knicks need a much more strict conditioning program

i have a feeling it was a case of overconfidence mixed in w/a night of heavy partying down in South Beach that was the reason these guys started off so slow & ran out of gas late.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TrueBlue
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1/23/2007  10:03 AM
Hey Rich:


Should a team with something to prove this yr, with the exact conditions they want, having 3weeks straight of being anywhere from 1/2-3gms out of the division lead....... be giving poor effort in games 42gms into the season? Should substitution patterns be an issue after the Guiness Book Of World Records was set by LB last yr with 42 different line-ups and complete wacky rotations?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Rich
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1/23/2007  11:16 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:

Hey Rich:


Should a team with something to prove this yr, with the exact conditions they want, having 3weeks straight of being anywhere from 1/2-3gms out of the division lead....... be giving poor effort in games 42gms into the season? Should substitution patterns be an issue after the Guiness Book Of World Records was set by LB last yr with 42 different line-ups and complete wacky rotations?

No.

It's sui generis. Larry seemed to be intent on discovering the maximum number of permutations a 12 man roster would permit.

Isiah is either insensitive to game situations, is trying to prove that Jefffies is a good signing, and/or has some other inexplicable reason for underusing Lee, and Balkman to a lesser degree, and misusing Frye and Craw.
bigbeast
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1/23/2007  11:26 AM
Posted by Rich:

Yes, they represent how a young team with talent deficiencies can produce inconsistent performances. Couple that with what are often poor substitution patterns, and you going to get some bad loses.

IMO, last night's loss was in a class by itself because of a total lack of effort early on.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-23-2007 09:22 AM]

The team just has too manyu inconsistant players. Other than Curry, Lee and Marb (when healthy) you just dont know what your getting from everyone else.

You know your gonna get 20 plus from Curry, You know Lee is gonna bust-it on the glass, and when healthy Marb can get you at least 17 pts and 6 ast. But Craw is inconsistant, Q has been much better this yr bit still goes has is more than occassional 2-11 6pt games, Frye is inconsistant, JJ2 is...well...JJ2 and the beats goes on. A bunch of inconsistant players equal inconsistant games, quarters, halves you name it.



[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-23-2007 11:35 AM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
nixluva
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1/23/2007  11:26 AM
Isiah isn't perfect and he's not a GREAT coach, but he's a very good talent evaluator and a good communicator. I doubt highly that the Knicks aren't in good condition. You can't come back from large deficits and win as many OT games as this team has if they aren't in condition. It's in their heads. They don't yet understand the level of play that they have to perform at everynight against every opponent. They aren't the Pistons or even the Bulls. Teams that "GET IT".

But understand that All season isiah has been working on those flaws and for the most part the team is making some progress, but they will have slippage. He hasn't yet conquered all of the problems on this team and it's gonna take time to accomplish that. This year wasn't about solving every single problem with this team in half of a season. A team with so many flawed players is gonna team longer than that to fix. So let's keep things in perspective.

Obviously Steph has been playing in pain and that may be the reason he looks so passive at times. You have to wonder why a guy who has lived on penetration would all of a sudden not look to drive, when that's his nature. We really need for Jamal and Nate to step up and we have needed that for a long time.
kam77
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1/23/2007  11:39 AM
Posted by fishmike:

One of the things I killed Isiah for was spending a ton of money to bring veteran guys in, none of which were from winning NBA programs or had a history of winning in this league.
Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Mo Taylor, Curry, Antonio Davis, Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas were all guys Isiah brought in making big money. Of those only Tim Thomas, Penny and Antonio had been a part of winning programs for any amount of time, and Antonio and Penny were obviously on thier way out (not in league).
Other key aquisitions: Jerome James, Crawford, Jared Jefferies, Nazr, Moochie... of all of those only JJSkinny had played in a +.500 system in Washington.

Two guys you forgot:

Malik Rose came from a winner. Quentin Richardson came from a winner.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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1/23/2007  11:41 AM
fishmike...

We had Kurt Thomas, Keith Van Horn, and some mediocre first rounders in our system as trade bait when Isiah got here, what kind of winning vets were we supposed to turn that into?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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1/23/2007  11:51 AM
Posted by kam77:

fishmike...

We had Kurt Thomas, Keith Van Horn, and some mediocre first rounders in our system as trade bait when Isiah got here, what kind of winning vets were we supposed to turn that into?

kt was a winning vet and kvh played on a finals team. i think the thinking should've been to get some young players to learn from those type of players so they know how to prepare and be professionals while developing.
Rich
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1/23/2007  11:57 AM
KT yielded Q and Nate. I'm fine with that.
MS
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1/23/2007  12:02 PM
Expiring deals

Dice 15 million
Mutumbo 4 million
Ward 6-7 million

Thats pretty good to trade with, remember the warriors got davis without taking on another player, shed was had for an expiring deal, lots of players are moved for that if you wait it out instead of just rushing....If Isiah doesn't make the Marbury deal go chance we get sheed.
franco12
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1/23/2007  12:12 PM
the knicks are like the island of misfit toys.

Flawed, but talented.

Talented, yes, but flawed.

Isiah has been a better coach than GM.

I don't have an issue with his substitutions- but, obviously Jeffries isn't working out right now and Balkman should be getting more time.
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