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Knicksfan1971
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1/25/2003  5:47 PM
Fmoran Who said anything about sacrificing season after season?I know
I didnt.We had a 7 pick and could of had Hilario or Stoudemire whoove
shown that they would have been worth it but instead we traded
one "Mr Glass" for another one.Those two will be putting up great
numbers long after Dice has retired.You say that in retrospect the
Dice trade was bad but it might have paid off.I was against it from
the start and so were alot of other posters because we were trading
one chronically injured big man for another when we could have picked
up one who could be in the league helping the Knicks for the next 10-
15 years and guess what we were right,unfortunately.Instead of
thinking of the future,which you make sound like a dirty word we
tried to aquire a player whoose best years are behind him...again!

As far as my "no superstar no ring" comment you have taken it
completely out of context,I was refering to your comment about not
needing to get another superstar through the draft because some
superstars dont win rings which to me makes no sense because there
hasnt been a team in more than 25 years that has been able to do it without one.Im tired of watching the Knicks get one aging veteran after another one more angle to stay in the playoffs without having a real chance to contend.I would love to blow this team up and start over but we cant because of their ridiculous contracts,the only way we
can improve long term is through the draft which we had an opportunity of doing last year.As far as the kidd for Marbury trade,thats a poor analogy,both of those player are at their peak and have had nowhere near the injury problems that dice and humpty camby have had.And yes he is more like grant hill than Vince,both have been out the majority of at least 2 seasons.Even if dice could come back and put up 20/10 which after blowing out his knee for the third time which seems doubtful,how long do you think he can keep it up?I happen to think it would be better to add some young talent while we are getting out of cap hell so that when we have the money the Knicks can have a good mix of veterans and youth.By continuously keeping the knicks the oldest team in the NBA thats not going to happen.Your comment about giving up is misplaced and hoping for a better tommorow is incorrect.By taking the 7 pick the Knicks would have been trying to build for tomorrow not just hoping its magically better.What amazes me is that after more than 30 years of futlity there are some people who want to do things exactly the same way,what has it gotten us? Some entertaining moments but no ring.You say this team is playoff caliber,maybe but is it championship caliber?Absolutely not and they wont as long as they dont think past this season.

Ive enjoyed this discussion,I know we are all hardcore fans here,
we may have differing opinions as to how to do things which is more
fun than everyone walking in lockstep but I think Ive said all I can say on the issue.Peace.
AUTOADVERT
fmoran
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1/26/2003  6:42 PM
Hope you don't mind replying once more. This is fun.
Posted by Knicksfan1971:

Who said anything about sacrificing season after season?

As far as my "no superstar no ring" comment you have taken it
completely out of context,I was refering to your comment about not
needing to get another superstar through the draft because some
superstars dont win rings which to me makes no sense because there
hasnt been a team in more than 25 years that has been able to do it without one.
What do you suppose blowing up a team does? Do you think we'll just magically draft the next MJ in our second season in the lottery? More, realistically, we'd be starting from scratch betting everything on our draft picks to become stars, while staying out of the playoffs season after season. We're better off improving the current product, then starting over and praying for Bron Bron to save the day.

That comment was well in context. How is aquiring a superstar through a trade (like Dice) different from getting one through the draft and letting him mature? You improve your team through good drafts and, more importantly, great trades. That's a fact. And look at players like Webber, Bibby, Nash, Finley, Dirk, T-Mac, Kidd, Jermaine, and to a lesser extent Vince, Kobe, and Shaq. These guys are doing way more for their current team then they ever did for the team that drafted them. But I'll get into this in a sec.

We made the right move on draft day, even if it looks bad now, and even if it takes everyone another year to realize it. We would have never drafted Amare, so get that thought out of your head. He's surprised everyone. So, considering we would have drafted Jeffries, or Hilario (who I love, don't get me wrong), McDyess was the better deal. Jeffries and Hilario might never have been All-Stars, even if they played with us for 20 years; Camby would be hurt (and have zero trade value), and the Knicks would be at the lottery again. On the other hand, McDyess was exactly what the Knicks needed: an All-Star, a force down low, a player who commands a double team. It's all a matter of quality over quantity. He was a perfect fit, and barring injury, he still has a lot of years left and will be a big factor in the Knicks futre. He's only 29! No amount of discussion would make me say I'd have done anything differently on draft day, cause even Amare doesn't compare to a healthy McDyess.

And he's no Camby. That comparison is laughable. Camby has never played more the 63 games in a season. He was injured 17 seconds into his return this season. He is Mr. Glass. Dice on the other hand, is former All NBA Third Team, and boasts career averages of 18 and 9. He had 5 healthy seasons before the two knee injuries prior to this season. And consider that at the time of the trade, he was comparable to Vince, only his injury occured at the beginning of the 2001-2002 season, rather then towards the end. Maybe 3 injuries in a row is bad, but it's not Camby/Hill bad. I'm sure he'll bounce back and give the city of New York some lasting memories. He still has plenty of talent left, and will be looking to prove critics wrong. Just knock on wood.

But "No Superstar, No Ring", right? Well tell me, what defines a superstar? Must he be stat leader? An All-Star? A leader on a team with a winning record? Tell me, if the Knicks were to win 60 games, would Houston, Spree, and Dice be considered superstars? While we're at it, compare that trio to the one from Sacramento: Dice/Webber, the inside presence; Houston/Peja, the pure shooter; and Spree/Bibby, the cluch scoring threat. That seems about right to me.

I know you're thinking of a superstar along the lines of T-Mac and Iverson, but why? Those two have their teams barely above .500. Today's game is more team oriented, with importance being placed upon balancing talent. Why do you think balanced squads like Dallas, Sacramento, Indiana, and Detroit are leading the league? It's this kind of team balance that's gonna win champonships from now on, not the superstar duos of the past. Blame the zone.
What amazes me is that after more than 30 years of futlity there are some people who want to do things exactly the same way,what has it gotten us?
Two Finals appearances in 10 years?
go knicks!
knixphan
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1/26/2003  7:41 PM
Fmoran, great post...I'm knocking the hell out of all the wood I can find! We should all be hoping the best for the Diceman. He's one of us now, for better or worse...Imagine having an LJ-type guy back in the lineup! And Doleac starting at center with a young buck to back him up...Not at all bad in the East.

By the way...Did anyone see the Matrix trailer during the Super Bowl? - wow.


Cheers! Go Knicks.

"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
Vmart
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1/27/2003  12:02 PM
Two Finals appearances in 10 years?

[/quote]

Content fan.
Killa4luv
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1/28/2003  1:48 AM
Well fmoran made some pretty good arguments for the dice trade. I liked dice then and i like him now. Most hadn't really seen him play so they didn't know what he was capable of. I had seen him and I knew he could have been what we needed. I just thought, that if we drafted Nene, we could have put him at center which is the position he plays in Denver, and we could have lightened some of the load on KT for rebounding and blocks. We would have then had a legitimate presence in the paint defensively.

And I don't know if you could tell by his 5 dunks in the garden (including one with the left on harrington) that he would have had an impact on our team, and our record. I think he would have made his best transition in NY with such a big Brazilian population also.
We don't have one athletic big man on our team. Well, we have dice, but he isn't there. But I guess, if you consider what dice can bring to this team, we would not only be in the playoffs, we would be among the best in the east. But hey, all I can do is wonder what could have been.
fmoran
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1/28/2003  3:21 PM
Hey don't get me wrong. If we could still somehow get Nene from Denver, I'd be all for it. He's gonna be a terrific player in the center-dry league that is the NBA. But the Dice oppurtunity was too good to turn down. He's the superstar we needed to build around. Building around a rookie isn't the way to go (look where it got the Clippers with Kandi, or Golden State with Jamison. Vinces and Tim Duncans only come once in a blue moon).

We can't get fixated on a superstar. We have to work with what we have. Knicksfan1971 said that every team that won the title in the last 25 years has had the best player in the game. But maybe we're looking at it the wrong way. Maybe it's not the best player in the game that wins a ring, but the ring that makes that player the best in the game. Think about it. If the Knicks were to win the title, would they not have the best shooter in the game in Houston? The best scorer in the game in Sprewell? The best big man in the game in Dice?

I like the nucleus we're developping. We still have yet to see what all 3 can do on the court, but I have a feeling it'll be something special. Sprinkle in some Thomas here, some Vujanic there, add some smart trades, and solid drafts, and this team is heading in the right direction.
go knicks!
Knicksfan1971
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1/28/2003  4:08 PM
Knickheart.
Vmart
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1/28/2003  4:40 PM
Posted by fmoran:

Hey don't get me wrong. If we could still somehow get Nene from Denver, I'd be all for it. He's gonna be a terrific player in the center-dry league that is the NBA. But the Dice oppurtunity was too good to turn down. He's the superstar we needed to build around. Building around a rookie isn't the way to go (look where it got the Clippers with Kandi, or Golden State with Jamison. Vinces and Tim Duncans only come once in a blue moon).

We can't get fixated on a superstar. We have to work with what we have. Knicksfan1971 said that every team that won the title in the last 25 years has had the best player in the game. But maybe we're looking at it the wrong way. Maybe it's not the best player in the game that wins a ring, but the ring that makes that player the best in the game. Think about it. If the Knicks were to win the title, would they not have the best shooter in the game in Houston? The best scorer in the game in Sprewell? The best big man in the game in Dice?

I like the nucleus we're developping. We still have yet to see what all 3 can do on the court, but I have a feeling it'll be something special. Sprinkle in some Thomas here, some Vujanic there, add some smart trades, and solid drafts, and this team is heading in the right direction.

Simply put talent wins in the NBA. All the Champions have the best players in the game they are the best because they win the championships not the championship making them the best. If the Knicks are to make it to the championship without a superstar then they had better play team ball to the max or surround themselves with all good basketball players at every position including the bench, because that is the only way they will win a championship or get close to it. But don't come calling during crunch time because that is when you need the superstar to get you through it. Lakers have Kobe and the Bulls had the ultimate crunch time player in Jordan. Lakers had Majic who is right up there with Jordan and the list goes on with Bird, Hakeem, Duncan and I. Thomas. Spree can no longer take over like he use to and Houston is to one dementional to be a take the game over type guy. Dice has the potential but we don't know if he can come back to the 20-10 guy that he was in the past, Hopefully he does comeback strong. If he doesn't then the Knicks are in the same position again thats why they have to get a player that commands the ball when the game is on the line a franchise player.

I to like the mix of Spree, Houston and Dice but I need a guy thats a homegrown superstar on the Knicks who is going to take it to the next level just as Ewing was a homegrown superstar. The loyalty of a homegrown superstar is what is missing on the Knicks you can't get that in trades and free agency. Hopefully Vujanic will be that homegrown superstar for the Knicks. Maybe with the luck of some basketball gods the Knicks will get LeBron.
BigSm00th
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1/28/2003  5:02 PM
"All the Champions have the best players in the game they are the best because they win the championships not the championship making them the best. "-Simply not true. Did you watch the World Championships last year. Yugoslavia and Argentina both beat the United States with inferior talent but played team basketball. If talent won in the NBA Portland would be in the running each and very year. I agree with froman, the McDyess trade was a necessity. If this team wasn't $500 million over the cap, then maybe they could think about rebuilding, but in an incredibly small and weak Eastern Conference, McDyess would've dominated. He did in the preseason, he will next year. The Knicks, without a ton of talent, have managed to hang around due to their playing team basketball and running a good transition offense. You mean to tell me with McDyess starting instead of Harrington this would be the same team? I think not. I'm looking towards next year, Vujanic at PG, McDyess downlow, and hopefuly Emeka Okafor in the lane readying himself for a blocked shot. This lotto pick will help the Knicks immensely, and I believe next year they'll be top 4 in the East.
#Knickstaps
fmoran
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1/28/2003  6:07 PM
Posted by Vmart:

All the Champions have the best players in the game they are the best because they win the championships not the championship making them the best.
You're wrong. But rather then just sit here and type it, I'll illustrate a scenario for ya. Go back to the 2000-2001 NBA Finals. Now even if it seems crazy now, the Sixers did come as close as anyone to beating the Lakers with a surprising Game 1 victory. Allen Iverson was the best individual player in the game that year, but Shaq and Kobe together were too much to handle. A Championship would have made Iverson the best player in the game, period. MVP, All-Star MVP, Scoring Title, Finals MVP, and a ring. No questions. But Shaq and Kobe won the title, and we proclaimed them the best two players in the game. Were they? No, Iverson was a better player individually (proven by the fact that he did it alone, without the help of a superstar like Kobe/Shaq had), but a championship cements it in most peoples minds. Does that make sense to ya?

Here's a more recent example. Most people would agree that either T-Mac or Kobe (maybe even Iverson) is the best indivual player in the game. The numbers they put up are mind-boggling. But come summer time, the best player in the game will be CWebb/Dirk, depending on who wins the title (for the purpose of this discussion, I am not considering the Lakers winning the title, even though they might. I'm treating them like any team five games below .500. Think Knicks.) With a ring comes the moniker of best player(s) in the game. So tell me: Is it the best player in the game (T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson) who wins titles, or is a title that establishes a player as the best (CWebb, Dirk)? Thought so.

As for Crunch Time, don't sweat it. You can only lose so many close games before you finally win them. Look at the Fourth Quarter Breakdown, made famous last year. Then look at games this year like the 94-91 win vs. Detroit where they blew a 32 point lead, or how about the 106-98 win against Phoenix, where they blew a 22 point lead. They're finally saving enough of the lead to win, and don't be surprised if soon enough they stop blowing leads all together. Eventually they'll be pulling out more and more of these close games too, with more and more crunch time plays. You worry about who is gonna take the shot, but that shouldn't matter. It should matter that it goes in. That's what made the Lakers so dangerous. Any one of Kobe, Shaq, Fox, Fisher and especially Horry would make huge crunch time plays.

Like I said, be excited for the return of Dice. I think we'll surprise the East big time next year.

Posted by BigSm00th:

I agree with froman,
This just cracked me up.

[Edited by - fmoran on 01/28/2003 18:10:13]
go knicks!
BigSm00th
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1/28/2003  6:47 PM
Haha, yeah, I realized that after but didn't feel like waiting for my slow browser to load the page again to edit it. My bad.
#Knickstaps
Killa4luv
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1/29/2003  12:38 AM
"or is a title that establishes a player as the best (CWebb, Dirk)?"

Are you implying that dallas might win a championship?
There is just no friggin way!!! They are obviously extremely talented at the 1,2 and 4, but they have no defense. Defensively they really suck. Over the course of a seven game series with portland, or Sac town, I really don't see them winning.

I think they still need someone or something else to bring them up to championship level, because none of those guys play good D.

BUt I agree with everything else.
BigSm00th
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1/29/2003  4:15 PM
How you can say that there is "no friggin way" that Dallas can win the NBA championship is beyond me. Every year Dirk gets better, Finley is a very good defender, Bradley can block shots, and they have a bench of guys who play good defense (Griffin, Najera, etc). They have, outside of Arco, the best home court in the league, and can field a lineup of Nash, Van Exel, Finley, Nowitzki, and Lafrentz, 5 very capable scorers. When they got hot, nobody can keep up with them. Their knock has always been no post defense, but with Shaq possibly not even being in the playoffs, that won't be a problem. For you just to eliminate them because they play poor defense (which really can't even be said anymore, their zone is very effective against teams that don't shoot well) is ridiculous.
#Knickstaps
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