Posted by Dan1078:

Andrew-so every team in the league except for Sacramento, Dallas and LA should just mail in the season because they aren't the favorites to win a championship this year?

Being competetive, even on a 2nd or 3rd tier team builds an atmosphere
of winning which is the foundation of eventually getting a championship.

According to your flawed theory, every team in the league except, for the three above should mail in the season and put all of their energy into building themselves to match the talent of the frontrunners. That's crap.

that's not what he meant at all... there are some teams that clearly need to rebuild and some teams that are competing for the championship this year or next... there are clearly teams in the league that wont be competing for anything anytime soon, and that's the knicks, heat, toronto, cavs, clippers, warriors, nuggets, bulls, etc. you get the idea. most of those teams are stocked with young talent and rebuilding for the future and have young guys with integral roles on the team and might be stars in the league soon. the knicks don't have that. milos is the closest thing, and he's not even in a NYK's jersey yet...

Posted by Dan1078:

First of all, you should to realize that the Knicks went 1-7 to start the year without Spree. Since then, they've been playing .500
ball. And how many close games have the Knicks lost? I think that at some point of this season, they'll start haiving the killer instinct and compusure that they missed in the beginning of the season.

Going nowhere for years to come? Whoa, buddy, why dont we all slit or wrists then. Contracts do expire, you know.

You're missing the point, the Knicks have no other options as far as franchise players go. McDyess is the guy next year. If he doesn't
deliver than his contract expires and the Knicks need to search for another #1 guy. Like Ive said before, cut your negative crap out--
Look at how Jerry Rice recovered from his knee injuries.

How would you propose that they "put themselves in a position where come next year they have a player for the future who will lead the Knicks for years to come." Tank the season and hope to land Lebron, Carmello or Darko? Dont you realize that its ridiculous for a team
to allow ping pong balls to decide it's future?

What about hoping that Vujanic is the young player that will lead the Knicks for years to come? He is the best player in Europe after all.

Look I like the fact they are being competitive. But losing game should be a prority right now and it comes with winning later and quite possibly getting championships. I want championship I don't want the the Knicks to be second to any team. We all have seen with a little luck the team can go far. Just as they won the lottery for Ewing who brought the franchise 15 years of playoffs. It can happen again there is nothing like winning and its really not a negative attitude it has positive implications what I have to say. I don't necessarily want them to lose every game but they should try and get a position in the draft to get a quality player. So if Dice comes back they have a youth and experience messing to get the Knicks back to playoffs with a chance at a title not just to make the playoff for the sake of making it there.

Competitiveness is a thing that isn't necessarily measured with wins They can be competitive in losing too. Winning a championship in the NBA is probably the most difficult thing to do in sports if go back there have only been a handful of teams that have won championships in the league and those teams always had the best player in the league. If the Knicks are to get there they have to have the best player I can't think of a better place to get one then in the lottery. The Knicks can't go the free agent route they are capped out for several year they really can't get a high profile player through free agency. If the Knicks take this one chance at hitting the lottery this could easily lead to 50+ wins next year. I think this is a well worth risk. It shouldn't be passed up, but it looks very much like they are going to pass it up. The way I see it is that they are passing up a championship by winning now.

Posted by Dan1078:

So basically, you guys are saying that either a team is in a competetive or rebuilding mode.
You attach too much of a stigma to 'rebuilding.' Why cant a team
accomplish rebuilding, while still being .500, like the Pacers did?

Losing puposely to be lottery bound is one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever heard.

Not to mention how bad losing on purpose would be for the league!
The draft is suppose to help the teams that need it the most.
So your basically telling players to ignore their pride and telling
a team to deceive the league into thinking that they are worse than they are.

So, according to you, if you were management, you would tell your players to miss shots/loaf around/purposely give up rebounds?
You're going to tell these guys, to purposely botch what they are
paid to do? "Hey Allan, don't actually aim for the rim." "Kurt, take
fadeaways from 20 feet out." "Spoon, let the other guys knock you around inside." Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

Even if a team has the worst record in the league, they only have a TWENTY% chance of getting the #1 pick. Realistically, lets
say the Knicks finish 5th to last overall. Do you really think
that they will draft somebody who carries the franchise to a championship? Sure, there's a chance, but what if they don't find that stud in this upcoming draft? SHould they flop next year too and hope for the following draft? It could go on and on and on and on.

You never tell someone not to do their job for the distant and possible benefit of the organization. Especially competeive, gifted athletes.

Like I said, you don't let the future of your franchise depend on ping pong balls!

I don't have much to add; I just want to say I basically agree with you. I would like to see the Knicks do more about rebuilding in terms of developing their young players by giving them some minutes in real games. That might result in more losses, but I could live with that if these younger players were really given a chance to show what they're capable of.

But otherwise, I don't want to watch a team that's throwing games.

[Edited by - knickgeek on 01/23/2003 13:42:25]

[Edited by - knickgeek on 01/23/2003 13:43:39]

I can see both sides of this argument has its points but in the end
it comes down to what you want from being a Knicks fan,do you want
the pride of knowing your team has won championships(lately anyway)
or are satisfied that they are competitive but dont want to see any
steps backwards to go forwards so to speak by tanking the season.
I think both points of view show pride in their team.The former wants
to be able to say that their team is the best and by whatever means
it takes to get there,the other side doesnt want the team to lose
face by not playing their best and have their team labeled as
"quitters".I believe both points of view stem from pride in the
Knicks but like I said in the end its what you want out of being a
fan.I cant speak for anyone else in this regard,all I can say is
that I want to see the Knicks win a ring again.Ive waited much too long since the last one.Look at other 2 major markets LA, and Chicago
and count how many theyve won between them since weve won ours.NY
is the mecca of BBall and we havent won one since Nixon was in the
White House.To be honest if we had won at least one in the Ewing era,
the last 5-10 years anyway it might be easier to take but we didnt
and it looks like the 70s and 80s all over again Im sorry but I
dont want to repeat that.Tanking the season,hoping we dont make
the playoffs whatever people want to call it,the end result of
not making the playoffs is our best chance of moving forward in the
long term.I dont want to stake the future on Dice's knees or Houston's
4th quarter stats or the parade of overpriced "talent" we have on
contract for some years to come.Some dont want to rest our future in
the lottery but take a look at our odds with what we have on contract
for the next few years.We can all be rest assured that the Knicks arent going to tank,but if they dont make the playoffs at least some real tangible long term benefits may come of it.A mediocre squad with early round exits to me isnt a benefit at all.

Maybe Chaney should start Postell and Frank Williams, just because
they're young and inexpereinced. Then next year, the Knicks can start
whoever they draft. The same formula will work the following year.


Wonderful theory you have there.

Like I said, if Postell and Williams looked good in practice, Chaney would find time for them.

I understand that youre saying that you wantthe Knicks to rebuild.
But playing Postell and Williams instead of SPree and Hosuton isnt rebuilding.

Rebuilding would be to gut the whole roster, trading veterans for expiring contracts. The Knicks dont have this as an option, because
their players are not tradeable.

So you want them to half-ass rebuild just by playing Lavor and Frank.
Yeah, thats the ticket. Great idea, Ace.

Yeah, Andrew, you're right about me contradicting myself.

However, my point was that the Knicks dont have the option of gutting the roster because of untradable contracts. Also, the Pacers rebuilt more through trades than through the draft.

They obtained Jermaine Oneal, Brad Miller and Ron Artest through trades for Dale Davis and Jalen Rose.

They did obtain Tinsley and Harrington through the draft, but that was
mid to late 1st round.

The Knicks would not need a lottery pick to rebuild in similar way.

Everyone seems to think that youth is the answer. Sure we see all the good moves for gambling on a youngster like Amare Stoudamire, or
Jermaine Oneal (Like the Pacers did) but we're not mentioning all of the young guys that never really amount to anything beyond medicore.

And what young guys are you talking about that need development on
the Knicks? Sure, Postell is okay, but should the Knicks devote to playing him for 20 mpg? Frank Williams is not ready for the NBA.
Thats what summer leagues are for. If teh Knicks had a couple of 17
yr old phenoms that were raw, I would agree with sacraficing wins to get them playing time.

Youre telling me that youre frusturated because teh Knicks havent worked on developing LAVOR POSTELL?! Gimme a break.

Dan, I think that you are a die hard Knicks fan. Because you are a die hard Knicks fan you can't fathom the though of them losing even if it means getting a championship. For me seeing the Knicks win a championship is the last piece of the puzzle. I have seen Hockey championships, Baseball, Football but the last thing is a Basketball championship in NY. I have seen the Knicks in the playoffs thats been done the championship is the only thing missing though. I want the Knicks to be in the running for LeBron. From an organization stand point this kid will bring people to the garden the spot light will be back on the Knicks. There is going to be a buzz again in the garden which has been missing for a while now. If the Knicks do get wise and get in the lottery and get this kid he might be worth Billons to this organization. I was watching sports century on Jordan he brought over 10 billion dollars worth of revenue to the NBA if James bring half that or 1/10 that he would be worth throwing this season away for.

I know its tough to ask for losses but with every loss there is a better tomarrow for the Knicks. I say this only because had the Knicks landed the number one last season they would have scored Yao Ming which would have made the Knicks the favorites in the east. If they get a high draft pick and Dice comes back close 100% they are going to be one of the favorites to win the east next season.

A team should always have the intention of winning every game.
Anything other than that is bad karma.

Posted by Vmart:

I have seen the Knicks in the playoffs thats been done the championship is the only thing missing though.

People really don't see the whole picture. I mean, why is anything less then a championship considered a failed season for you? I'm a die-hard knicks fan, always have, always will be, and I'll be the first to tell you that if they had a healthy McDyess, they'd be contending for the Eastern crown, considering how well they play without him against top East teams like Indiana and New Jersey. But they probably wouldn't have won the title. Would that kind of season be a failure in your eyes? I mean only one city has won a title in the last 3 years. Should the other 28 teams have tanked their seasons for the chance to draft the likes of Brand, K-Mart, and Kwame? Last time I checked those 3 haven't won any titles either.

The fact of the matter is there are more important things, as fans, to admire about a team then whether they win a championship or not. Making the playoffs is an achievement. To say otherwise is to say Patrick Ewing did absolutely nothing for this franchise. Of course everyone's goal is to win the big one, but should we throw in the towel if the best we can do is 2nd? Or 3rd? Or 10th? What I am hearing is that making the playoffs doesn't matter if you can't win a title. But think about it: Are the Jazz going to win it all this year? How about the Suns? Rockets? How about the Eastern Conference? Probably not. So why do they even bother, right? Why even have an Eastern conference? Because giving up your chance at the title is even worse then losing it to a better team. Who in their right mind says, "Man I know we're in the playoffs right now, but I'd much rather be in the lottery, so that the franchise will benefit down the road, then competing for a title now." Who knows? Maybe the Knicks will squeeze into the playoffs, just in time for McDyess to come back and lead them to the Finals, where they give Kings a run for their money.

Point being, you place too much value on a lottery pick. What is one 17-year old rookie going to do for you? So what if he is the real deal. Did Karl Malone, Pat Ewing, or Charles Barkley win titles? No. And Lebron could just as easily end his career not having won the Knicks that title you so desperately crave. A decent lottery pick will keep us out of the lottery, but barring a LeBron (maybe even Drako/Carmelo) the playoff runs will be led by Houston, Spree, and Dice. And, uh, if we can avoid the lottery altogether THIS year, should that be the goal? You talk about rebuilding, but is it really necessary yet? People put an emphasis on youth, but look at the last few teams to contend for titles. Shaq aint that young, and the Kings are veterans as well. I think the most important element to a championship team is chemistry. And Houston, Spree and Dice might have it. We'll have at least one more year to find out.

Sure the Knicks have contract issues, but contracts expire. They really aren't in as bad a state as everyone likes to say. Ok, maybe they are, but contracts expire.

Anyways, I'll stop ranting and leave ya with this thought: if the Knicks can be a mediocre team without arguably their best player (which is more then teams like Toronto and LA can say), imagine what they'd be doing with him.

This is truly the most dismal season since..last season. ugh. That McDyess Injury really killed my hopes this year. I'll give this team credit for trying though. Still I don't want them to just fold up either. If they are good enough to make the playoffs( they are 3 games behind the 8th place wizards , but they just had the easiest part of their schedule and have not broken any ground so I don't know about the chances, especially when things get tougher again.) I think Caseloads and Andrew Martin do make good points though. There is very little to be excited about this season. I think next season will be better though If Mcdyess is healthy, we can get Vunjanic over here and we don't sqaunder our pick(regardless of draft position). I won't be upset if the knicks somehow did make the playoffs. I wouldn't be upset if we get a lottery pick either.

Oh yeah here's one more funny.

It's funny how most of the funny statements aren't funny at all, but just sad.

FMORAN - A really lucid piece of work you did there. Great. Yeah I think Dice could have led the Knicks into the playoffs, how far is the question. Even if the Knicks get there this year, I think that it will be one and done. Everyone is bummed out with management and the failure to get young talent. Much of the dissing comes from several years of mis-management. The failure of Patrick and his years, the failure to retire Patrick and being able to use that retirement to pick up better young players, rather than some contracts the Knicks are still paying, among other things. The salary cap is tough on the Knicks because players who are here expect to be paid more than in most other cities. Maybe the NBA ought to give NY an adjustment on the cap to reflect this... Yeah lots of luck.

Even so.. if you love the Knicks keep checking here for the best Knicks discussions and the people who love them in spite of all.