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Curry and Marbury are our best players? Not even close....
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fishmike
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1/7/2007  4:30 PM
http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

36 games into it... almost half a season these numbers are relevant. Of all the core rotation guys Lee is so clearly the most effective player its not even funny.

Funny how as great as Curry's scoring is we are - with him on the floor. Just goes to show how inflated and overrated his scoring is when you dont play on both ends of the floor.
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Allanfan20
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1/7/2007  4:36 PM
Look at Frye's numbers. They are shocking.
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Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:38 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of posting the updated +/- #s too. They haven't been posted in a while

RE: Frye. He got off to a nightmare start but has played better. A slow start can happen to a rookie or a sophomore. His #s were good last year and I think they'll be good again eventually.
Allanfan20
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1/7/2007  4:47 PM
I don't dispute that, but the thing is, did we overrate him this Summer? And is it just not gonna work with Curry? So far, it seems like it's NOT gonna happen. I see it like this. You have to keep one or the other, not both.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
nyk4ever
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1/7/2007  4:49 PM
I agree Fryes numbers look terrible. Take a look at his numbers by position though, his production as a CENTER is much, much, much better as a C than as a PF. I'm sure Fish will agree with that sentiment, even without looking at his +/- stats.
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gunsnewing
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1/7/2007  4:53 PM
we're still on the plus side when Curry is on the floor and his + - is only getting better since the slow start
bigbeast
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1/7/2007  4:53 PM
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

36 games into it... almost half a season these numbers are relevant. Of all the core rotation guys Lee is so clearly the most effective player its not even funny.

Funny how as great as Curry's scoring is we are - with him on the floor. Just goes to show how inflated and overrated his scoring is when you dont play on both ends of the floor.

According to these numbers, Cato is our most effective player. You can look at numbers until you are blue in the face, I'd rather watch the game.

Tell me, is there a number/stat that can account for the fact that Curry is forcing other teams to change thier game plans and send 2 and 3 guys at him while it opens up the floor for guys like Lee to freelance, Craw, Frye and Marbs to spot up etc?
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:53 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I agree Fryes numbers look terrible. Take a look at his numbers by position though, his production as a CENTER is much, much, much better as a C than as a PF. I'm sure Fish will agree with that sentiment, even without looking at his +/- stats.
We went through this in DJ's thread. It's because they count him as a center when he's on the court with Curry because he's taller than Curry (and thus almost all of Frye's minutes are counted as center minutes). 82games isn't great for position by position analysis.
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:54 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

36 games into it... almost half a season these numbers are relevant. Of all the core rotation guys Lee is so clearly the most effective player its not even funny.

Funny how as great as Curry's scoring is we are - with him on the floor. Just goes to show how inflated and overrated his scoring is when you dont play on both ends of the floor.

According to these numbers, Cato is our most effective player. You can look at numbers until you are blue in the face, I'd rather watch the game.
The Cato explanation is very simple and doesn't discredit the stats: Cato's #s are simply based on a very small (likely unstable) sample.
Tell me, is there a number/stat that can account for the fact that Curry is forcing other teams to change thier game plans and send 2 and 3 guys at him while it opens up the floor for guys like Lee to freelance, Craw, Frye and Marbs to spot up etc?
These +/- stats are probably the best you'll ever find for taking that into account actually. If he was doing that and it was outweighing his negatives, his +/- #s would be better.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-07-2007 4:55 PM]
holfresh
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1/7/2007  4:55 PM

Are you guys serious???...Lee is better than Curry and Marbury???
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  4:56 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Are you guys serious???...Lee is better than Curry and Marbury???

good argument
nyk4ever
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1/7/2007  4:56 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I agree Fryes numbers look terrible. Take a look at his numbers by position though, his production as a CENTER is much, much, much better as a C than as a PF. I'm sure Fish will agree with that sentiment, even without looking at his +/- stats.
We went through this in DJ's thread. It's because they count him as a center when he's on the court with Curry because he's taller than Curry (and thus almost all of Frye's minutes are counted as center minutes). 82games isn't great for position by position analysis.

Is that so, Bonn? Didn't realize that. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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gunsnewing
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1/7/2007  4:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

36 games into it... almost half a season these numbers are relevant. Of all the core rotation guys Lee is so clearly the most effective player its not even funny.

Funny how as great as Curry's scoring is we are - with him on the floor. Just goes to show how inflated and overrated his scoring is when you dont play on both ends of the floor.

According to these numbers, Cato is our most effective player. You can look at numbers until you are blue in the face, I'd rather watch the game.
The Cato explanation is very simple and doesn't discredit the stats: Cato's #s are simply based on a very small (likely unstable) sample.
Tell me, is there a number/stat that can account for the fact that Curry is forcing other teams to change thier game plans and send 2 and 3 guys at him while it opens up the floor for guys like Lee to freelance, Craw, Frye and Marbs to spot up etc?
These +/- stats are probably the best you'll ever find for taking that into account actually. If he was doing that and it was outweighing his negatives, his +/- #s would be better.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-07-2007 4:55 PM]


you have to take into account that Curry got off to a terrible start. Is there a way to find his +/- since his hotstreak began?
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  5:09 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

36 games into it... almost half a season these numbers are relevant. Of all the core rotation guys Lee is so clearly the most effective player its not even funny.

Funny how as great as Curry's scoring is we are - with him on the floor. Just goes to show how inflated and overrated his scoring is when you dont play on both ends of the floor.

According to these numbers, Cato is our most effective player. You can look at numbers until you are blue in the face, I'd rather watch the game.
The Cato explanation is very simple and doesn't discredit the stats: Cato's #s are simply based on a very small (likely unstable) sample.
Tell me, is there a number/stat that can account for the fact that Curry is forcing other teams to change thier game plans and send 2 and 3 guys at him while it opens up the floor for guys like Lee to freelance, Craw, Frye and Marbs to spot up etc?
These +/- stats are probably the best you'll ever find for taking that into account actually. If he was doing that and it was outweighing his negatives, his +/- #s would be better.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-07-2007 4:55 PM]


you have to take into account that Curry got off to a terrible start. Is there a way to find his +/- since his hotstreak began?
Curry's had a bad +/- his whole career, though. But it has gotten a little better (less negative)
misterearl
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1/7/2007  5:38 PM
The Acid Test

Who is the Knicks Most Valuable Player?

Who is the player the Knicks would miss most if he was unable to play?

The Knicks player I want my daughter to marry?

The Knicks player, under 25 years old, most likely to make the All Star Team first?

The player who reminds me the most of my favorite Knick of all time, Dave DeBusschere?

The most handsome?

All performance features equal, who do I cheer for the loudest?



[Edited by - misterearl on 01-07-2007 5:38 PM]
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TheGame
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1/7/2007  5:46 PM
IMO Curry and Marbury are the keys to this team. When Marbury is scoring and passing effectively the offense runs smoothly, and Curry is our primary scorer and forces other teams to double opening up things for guys like Crawford, Marbury, Frye, and Lee (which is one of the reasons Lee can get those offensive boards although it is clear that he is a superior rebounder regardless). Lee is probably our third best player before Crawford and Q because of his ability to secure the defensive rebound and provide extra opportunities with his offensive rebounding. Plus he is a solid passer. Crawford would be our third best player if he shot at a higher percentage and made wiser decisions with the ball b/c the guy can go off like an Arenas when he is on. In short, Lee is very important to this team, but I would not say he is our most valuable player. I will say though that he is the one with the most trade value on the team.

[Edited by - TheGame on 01-07-2007 5:48 PM]
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holfresh
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1/7/2007  5:47 PM
Posted by misterearl:

The Acid Test

Who is the Knicks Most Valuable Player?

Who is the player the Knicks would miss most if he was unable to play?

The Knicks player I want my daughter to marry?

The Knicks player, under 25 years old, most likely to make the All Star Team first?

The player who reminds me the most of my favorite Knick of all time, Dave DeBusschere?

The most handsome?

All performance features equal, who do I cheer for the loudest?



[Edited by - misterearl on 01-07-2007 5:38 PM]

Knicks MVP...Curry
Knicks miss the most...Curry
Knicks first AllStar...Marbs been there already b4 age 25...but Curry

All other questions has ntg to do with the game...

Most improved player....Lee..thus the confusion...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-07-2007 5:51 PM]
tomverve
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1/7/2007  5:48 PM
+/- should not have anyone's faith. If you imagine a player whose production on the court remains constant, his +/- could vary wildly depending on e.g. who he is subbing in/out for; what lineups he typically plays with; what lineups he typically plays against; etc. There are too many confounds to draw causal conclusions from the data.
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Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  5:54 PM
Posted by tomverve:

+/- should not have anyone's faith. If you imagine a player whose production on the court remains constant, his +/- could vary wildly depending on e.g. who he is subbing in/out for; what lineups he typically plays with; what lineups he typically plays against; etc. There are too many confounds to draw causal conclusions from the data.
I hear what you're saying. I don't view the stat as useless, though. I view it as imperfect. You do have to remember who the guy is subbing in for. In this case, that would only help Curry as his sub is either Jerome James or Channing Frye, who despite recent improvement is having a very poor season. It would be nice to see a validation study by having "experts" rate players and then seeing how much they correlate with the +/- #s. I suppose a decent, easier way to do so would be to examine whether the 24 all-stars last season have much higher than average (i.e., much greater than 0.0) +/- #s. I'd be willing to bet that they do.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-07-2007 5:57 PM]
Bonn1997
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1/7/2007  5:56 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by misterearl:

The Acid Test

Who is the Knicks Most Valuable Player?

Who is the player the Knicks would miss most if he was unable to play?

The Knicks player I want my daughter to marry?

The Knicks player, under 25 years old, most likely to make the All Star Team first?

The player who reminds me the most of my favorite Knick of all time, Dave DeBusschere?

The most handsome?

All performance features equal, who do I cheer for the loudest?



[Edited by - misterearl on 01-07-2007 5:38 PM]

Knicks MVP...Curry
Knicks miss the most...Curry
Knicks first AllStar...Marbs been there already b4 age 25...but Curry

All other questions has ntg to do with the game...

Most improved player....Lee..thus the confusion...



[Edited by - holfresh on 01-07-2007 5:51 PM]

Knicks' most flashy players who get the highlights and are the most "talented" by conventional views of talent that ignore hustle and hard work: Marbury and Curry
Knicks' best impact player: Lee

Hence the confusion
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Curry and Marbury are our best players? Not even close....
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