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Contend for championship in marbury's contract year?
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babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  1:22 PM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12142006/sports/knicks/dream_on__isiah_knicks_kevin_kernan.htm


Asked yesterday by beat writers about Jim Dolan's Monday comment - "I believe this could be the team that ultimately can compete for a championship"
...
"If we continue to do as good a job with Eddy [Curry], then you've got the 5 and the All-Star," Thomas began, laying out his championship thought process, starting with the center. "My blueprint when I'm looking back at my Indiana team, you make an All-Star, then you make a defensive player, you get somebody on the all-defensive team jeffries. Then somewhere along the line we've got to make another [All-Star] from this young group crawford, lee, qrich?, then you can talk along those lines. I don't think we're that far away."
...
Later, Thomas talked again about the young core and said "... then you're talking three, four years down the road, you've got a shot to play for it."
...
Before last night's win, Isiah was at it again, singing his celebration song. "We have a nice young core," he said, "... we're not that far away from being a very good basketball team."
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
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Bippity10
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12/14/2006  1:33 PM
Once again talk is cheap. It sounds good. I like the young guys. But we need Isiah to commit to this and stop trading/signing guys we obviously don't need, passing them off as assets and then cutting them or benching them. Cutting down on the god awful mistakes we've made is the key to building a contender. But isn't that always the way. The reason we haven't seen much progress to date and are still 3 to 4 years away is because over the last 6 years we have wasted so much time signing garbage and then scapegoating. It's time to take a stand. I don't care if it is Isiah, the next guy or LB or anyone that makes a stand, but for pete's sake. Make a stand. If our core is Curry and Jeffries, then build a team that has them in mind.
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islesfan
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12/14/2006  1:39 PM
Seriously, outside of Knicks management and some of their fans, is there anybody that thinks that this is a championship contending core?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/14/2006  1:42 PM
No, and that is why despite the progress, we are still in desperate need of a GM that can continue to develop this core.
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babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  1:45 PM
nobody, outside of knicks management and some of their fans, thinks the knicks will win more than 23 games.

[Edited by - babyknicks on 12-14-2006 1:46 PM]
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
Allanfan20
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12/14/2006  1:47 PM
Actually, a lot of people on this board think the Knicks will win 38 and are ready to celebrate if that is accomplished. I personally, didn't make a prediction.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
islesfan
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12/14/2006  1:49 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

nobody, outside of knicks management and some of their fans, thinks the knicks will win more than 23 games.

[Edited by - babyknicks on 12-14-2006 1:46 PM]

Must be why the Vegas over/under on Knicks wins was more than 23 games.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Michael6835
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12/14/2006  1:53 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Seriously, outside of Knicks management and some of their fans, is there anybody that thinks that this is a championship contending core?

I think the core is a championship core. If EC turns into the franchise center we want him to be, then yes this is a squad. You have LEE, Jeffries, Q, NATE, Balkman, Crawford. Maybe Marbs if he isnt traded in his final year.

All thats missing is a few more role players in my opinion. Right now everyone is young and to expect them right now to be a contender is a joke. 4-5 years down the road. A strong possibility. If you blow the team up, fire the coach, change the gm now, then this team will suck for the next 10 yrs. Right now, they have essentially retooled through trades and the draft. In that process they have gotten younger and more talent. Now, that talent needs to be molded. Players like Marb/Francis are harder to mold because they have been in the league awhile and when its time to make the push they will probably not be here.
Take the 94 rockets team, they had olajuwon and the rest were role players.
the pacers of the 90s miller, smits was a glorified center
the 93 suns, barkley with role players.

You have to edit your question with a time line.
M
babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  1:55 PM
exactly what M said.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
TMS
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12/14/2006  2:03 PM
"If we continue to do as good a job with Eddy [Curry], then you've got the 5 and the All-Star," Thomas began, laying out his championship thought process, starting with the center. "My blueprint when I'm looking back at my Indiana team, you make an All-Star, then you make a defensive player, you get somebody on the all-defensive team jeffries. Then somewhere along the line we've got to make another [All-Star] from this young group crawford, lee, qrich?, then you can talk along those lines. I don't think we're that far away."
...
Later, Thomas talked again about the young core and said "... then you're talking three, four years down the road, you've got a shot to play for it."
...
Before last night's win, Isiah was at it again, singing his celebration song. "We have a nice young core," he said, "... we're not that far away from being a very good basketball team."

when Isiah was hired, all he kept talking about was building to become a championship calibre team... his idea of bringing in an Allstar was supposed to be filled w/his trade for Marbury, & bringing in guys like Tim Thomas & Nazr Mohammed was supposed to be some of the filler glue pieces... obviously that was all a miserable failure... now he's spinning his plan on the fly, saying Curry is the Allstar & that the other players around him fill the other holes of the role players to fit around him.

see, this is what i DON'T like about Isiah... he really has no plan... he's brought in some good young talent & for that i give him props, but he fails to own up to the bad moves he's made that have been proven to be failures under the guise that this is all part of his rebuilding plan... NY fans aren't stupid & we know what's real & what's not... this team IS on the right track... NOW... that's because Isiah & Dolan have stopped trying to make big fix it all moves bringing in overpaid veteran talent & have seemingly finally committed to developing the youth & form a core to build around... Isiah would be so much more credible in the eyes of Knick fans if he would just own up to the past mistakes he's made & make it known that he's learned from them & is committed now to that new plan, which should have been the plan all along... the best way he could do that is to get rid of Marbury imo... that single trade has defined his tenure here, & if he would reverse course on that move & admit that it was a failure, then he would gain some more credibility in the eyes of many Knick fans imho... but if he keeps trying to spin every mistake he makes as positives, then all he's doing is hurting his own already tainted image as a used car salesman.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bippity10
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12/14/2006  2:03 PM
Posted by Michael6835:
Posted by islesfan:

Seriously, outside of Knicks management and some of their fans, is there anybody that thinks that this is a championship contending core?

I think the core is a championship core. If EC turns into the franchise center we want him to be, then yes this is a squad. You have LEE, Jeffries, Q, NATE, Balkman, Crawford. Maybe Marbs if he isnt traded in his final year.

All thats missing is a few more role players in my opinion. Right now everyone is young and to expect them right now to be a contender is a joke. 4-5 years down the road. A strong possibility. If you blow the team up, fire the coach, change the gm now, then this team will suck for the next 10 yrs. Right now, they have essentially retooled through trades and the draft. In that process they have gotten younger and more talent. Now, that talent needs to be molded. Players like Marb/Francis are harder to mold because they have been in the league awhile and when its time to make the push they will probably not be here.
Take the 94 rockets team, they had olajuwon and the rest were role players.
the pacers of the 90s miller, smits was a glorified center
the 93 suns, barkley with role players.

You have to edit your question with a time line.

Who on this site is expecting this squad to be a contender today. So many people are using this to validate their opinion when their isn't a person on this site that wants this team to be a contender today. Most are praying for everyday effort and a near .500 record. What we want is a GM that will not sign "assets" and then dump those "assets" for nothing. To stop signing guys with spotty histories to huge contracts and focus on building a core that compliment each other. People have watched Isiah ignore the obvious for 3 years. Then finally start to do this and expcect fans not to be skeptical. Life doesn't work that way. Fans don't trust Isiah and there is an obvious and fair reason for this.
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babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  2:15 PM
the title of the thread is contend in marbury's contract year (2009?)
the last three years he's assembled that young core...each in their first and second year's and still extremely young by nba standards.

Our seasoned players (curry, qrich, sometime crawford) are assuming the leadership role and by 2009 will be in their primes (some argue curry could be in his prime sooner coming straight out of high school).

So, giving lee, frye, balkman, jeffries, etc. 2 more years to gell together as a unit, the knicks could contend in 2 years.

It's not HOW you get there, it's just that you get there, and ignoring the present (marbury, francis, jerome james) and focusing on the future, you can easily see the possibility of contending in 2 years.

Shaq may be retired by then. detroit is on the downturn and if the Bulls don't get Oden, we match up with them now.

so, contending for a championship just doesn't feel that far fetched to me IF (and that's a HUGE IF) curry continues his growth, jeffries becomes that all nba defender and we get another all star from our youth (qrich, crawford, frye, longshot lee?).

if those things happen (regardless of how we got to this point) I believe Isiah.

[Edited by - babyknicks on 12-14-2006 2:16 PM]
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bigpimpin
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12/14/2006  2:17 PM
I hope Marbury isn't here come his contract year. For the life of me, I cannot see what the infactuation is with Marbury.
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islesfan
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12/14/2006  2:22 PM
LeBron in Cleveland

Dwight in Orlando

Bosh and Bargnani in Toronto

Wade in Miami

Perhaps Oden in Philly

In 3 years those players and their teams will all be much better than the Knicks and keeping them out of the second round much less the NBA finals. And that's a best case scenario.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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12/14/2006  2:22 PM
Posted by TMS:

see, this is what i DON'T like about Isiah... he really has no plan...

I think this is a misperception. To me, Isiah's plan in the beginning was very clear - get a PG to penetrate and dish to Houston. A healthy Steph and Houston was a plan and would've been one of the best offensive backcourt in the league. Houston retired, time to switch up the plan. I agree that things get a little murky after that. He was caught between assembling players ready for the now (to keep people coming to games) and accumulating young players. On top of that, Larry Brown came in and messed everything up with his own agenda. Now, I'm starting to see a plan again. So far, he's passed up high priced, questionable players - Artest, Iverson, Webber (Francis trade is mysterious, you can believe what you like. I think Isiah wouldn't have made the trade if Larry hadn't pushed it) - and is committed to playing the kids and building their confidence. If you don't make any dumb trades, we could be players in the free agent market in a couple of years at a time when these kids are matured and ready to compete big time.
babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  2:23 PM
Posted by islesfan:

LeBron in Cleveland

Dwight in Orlando

Bosh and Bargnani in Toronto

Wade in Miami

Perhaps Oden in Philly

In 3 years those players and their teams will all be much better than the Knicks and keeping them out of the second round much less the NBA finals. And that's a best case scenario.

can we trade frye for any of those guys?
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Bippity10
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12/14/2006  2:31 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by islesfan:

LeBron in Cleveland

Dwight in Orlando

Bosh and Bargnani in Toronto

Wade in Miami

Perhaps Oden in Philly

In 3 years those players and their teams will all be much better than the Knicks and keeping them out of the second round much less the NBA finals. And that's a best case scenario.

can we trade frye for any of those guys?


Again a coach should not be blamed for a GM getting off track. A GM should be hiring a coach that fits HIS PLAN. The 5 coach'es he's hired and fired indicate that he was unsure of what he was doing. His job is not to do what the coach thinks. His job is to find the right coach for the plan that he is executing and then not undermine that coach in order to save his own short-term asse.

You cannot fool fans. We see that Isiah is adjusting. He is not adjusting because this is his plan all along. He is adjusting because he is finally realizing that slapping "big name talents" on a roster doesn't work. He is adjusting because he is learning NY and now realizing that NY fans don't want an and1 team, but guys that win. Instead of wasting millions signing and trading for Taylor and Rose and Big James and Jalen, he could have stood pat and gotten to a similar point without embarrassing his franchise and leading coach's out by security guards etc.

We have good young players. but this is only part of the picture.
I just hope that people will like me
babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  2:33 PM
4 steps back, 5 steps forward.
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islesfan
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12/14/2006  2:34 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by islesfan:

LeBron in Cleveland

Dwight in Orlando

Bosh and Bargnani in Toronto

Wade in Miami

Perhaps Oden in Philly

In 3 years those players and their teams will all be much better than the Knicks and keeping them out of the second round much less the NBA finals. And that's a best case scenario.

can we trade frye for any of those guys?


Again a coach should not be blamed for a GM getting off track. A GM should be hiring a coach that fits HIS PLAN. The 5 coach'es he's hired and fired indicate that he was unsure of what he was doing. His job is not to do what the coach thinks. His job is to find the right coach for the plan that he is executing and then not undermine that coach in order to save his own short-term asse.

You cannot fool fans. We see that Isiah is adjusting. He is not adjusting because this is his plan all along. He is adjusting because he is finally realizing that slapping "big name talents" on a roster doesn't work. He is adjusting because he is learning NY and now realizing that NY fans don't want an and1 team, but guys that win. Instead of wasting millions signing and trading for Taylor and Rose and Big James and Jalen, he could have stood pat and gotten to a similar point without embarrassing his franchise and leading coach's out by security guards etc.

We have good young players. but this is only part of the picture.

Does that mean that NY will accept rebuilding? Pretty damn ironic.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
babyKnicks
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12/14/2006  2:38 PM
New York will not accept rebuilding openly (see UK mafia) but if it leads to the desired results, they will look back and say "holy cow, we were rebuilding that entire time".

What is rebuilding? Everyone keeps posting getting a youthful core and sucking.

Well, if that ain't what we've done than I don't know what rebuilding is.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
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