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Just came back from NY-MEM...my take on the game, the fans, etc.
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PresIke
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12/4/2006  11:16 PM
I'm not doing an entire report of the game like djsunyc but I'll say a few things.

First off on Curry and Lee. Curry was dominating. I missed the last game on TV but tonight he was a monster inside. As was Lee, and there is clearly reasons behind this that anyone can see. When the Knicks pass, running high screen and rolls, and swinging the ball around, ending with penetration by one of the guards and a dish (many nice ones tonight) to Curry or Lee, these guys are excellent finishers around the basket. Most of their points appeared to come in the paint (the Knicks DESTROYED Memphis inside) but often it was the result of penetration from Marbury and Francis (with 6 & 7 assists, respectively) while Robinson had one spectacular pass and Crawford I can't really recall making many good passes for scores. Q also played really well, although in less dramatic than the other two.

Therfore, Isiah's offensive gameplan should probably be indentified as right for the current team. I see why Isola wrote the other day why he thinks Isiah has done a decent job as coach (which I sort of doubted) because the offense as structured, and when followed by the guards ESPECIALLY is PERFECT for this roster. The problems only started to come when Curry fouled out quickly late (2 of the 3 fouls were quite light I thought) and when he left guys like Crawford started doing too much one on one dribbling until the shotclock was almost gone. We got bailed out twice in the last few minutes, once on a foul call, and the other when Marbury should have shot it and passed it with something like 2 seconds to Q who hit a lucky shot. At that point the Grizz were making a run and that effectively killed it.

What that also says to me is how much the Knicks need Curry and how he may becoming the real center piece of this team. All of you calling for him to be traded now that he has had a few good games on offense in a row are sounding more and more crazy to me. If he goes this team will be an absoulte disaster. We'd then be relying upon our guards to score, which probably means more of the one on one BS from the past few seasons. Sure they can penetrate, but when you have to take your man off the dribble and score the percentages go way down. Lee would still be here and guys like Balkman, but with Lee and Curry we have two HIGHLY prolific finishers who seem to compliment each other. Curry was also doing a MUCH better job on the boards than I had seen earlier in the season and was hustling. Q and Francis did a good job of instructing him to set picks, etc. and I liked the body language of the team overall.

This includes Marbury who I thought was doing a really good job tonight, especially in the first half. It was like the old Starbury for sure. That sequence with the two drives and finishes were VINTAGE Steph, and anyone who hated that stuff is also nuts. He also used his pentration to set up guys like Curry and Lee, and later started to take them outside, where he took most of his jumpshots in the flow of the offense. I can't recall one time he ran down the floor and pulled up for a bad jumper. He did pull up and shoot once, but I thought he resisted doing so on a few other occassions. I mean the dude was 6-10 from the field. What's to complain about?

Which leads to my last comments about the fans. I'm sorry DJ, but there are some fans at the game who are booing whenever Steph or Curry didn't do EXACTLY what they were suppossed to. 4 minutes into the game, seriously, I think Curry got booed for blowing a dunk or Marbury for making a mistake. The Knicks were winning and this was at the 8 or 9 minute mark. Later when either Steph made a mistake or Curry missed a dunk (I can't remember which came first) boos started coming from a few sections near where I was (in the 200s) behind the Grizz bench. And other times when Curry missed a shot -- I think there was one where he got stripped on the way up and wanted a foul and I heard boos -- or Steph didn't do the right thing I heard boos. They weren't overly loud, except for a few times, but this was in a game that we were not only winning from the start but blowing them out, and Curry and Marbury were playing very well. I thought to myself, imagine if the Knicks blew a lead or they had an off game. You could tell later in the 4th that there were fans getting uneasy, almost half heartedly booing.

I'm not saying it's everyone, but the problem is almost everyone else is pretty darn quiet. There are a lot of empty seats, but the crowd is not really into the game except after a nice play, but then it quicly died down. There was no sustained crowd noise unitl late, and even that seemed half-hearted. You can hear ANYONE who yells a phrase at the players during the game, like one time when Francis had the ball near the 3 point line and a guy meanly yelled, "Shoot it!" when I think that's exactly what the team should not be doing. And another time that same guy yelled "Your mother can Tsakalidis!" There are also clearly people who are not Knick fans, but just there for the experience, or are rooting for their countryman. I saw two Spanish flags in the crowd, although Gasol is still injured. I'm not necessarily blaming the fans, but it's not a very festive atmosphere. The crowd seems to get more revved up for the non-game festivities, like getting a t-shirt with a corporate logo on it than rooting. I know the team has done it to themselves, and the Grizz are not exaclty the best team in the NBA, but the crowd energy was pretty low for a game with so many exciting plays from Curry, Lee, Marbury, Q and one from Nate that stands out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what this team will do over the next few games. We still have defensive problems (including from the guys who played well tonight) and when we get away from the gameplan we struggle, but I think this season may not yet be lost if we see the development of Lee and Curry continue and the team believe in Isiah's offensive scheme.

Oh yeah...and earl and his 20 + assists theory are on the money again (25 assists tonight)

[Edited by - PresIke on 12-04-2006 11:18 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 12-04-2006 11:18 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 12-04-2006 11:23 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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PresIke
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12/4/2006  11:20 PM
In fairness, I also think when the Grizz steped up the defensive intensity after Brian Cardinal came in we kind of lost our flair.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Allanfan20
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12/4/2006  11:36 PM
The NY fans are tough presike, w/o a doubt. There will definitely be some uneasy moments when some fans get out of hand. However, I think if the Knicks can play better and consistently, then you'll see the enthusiasm increase and the boos decrease.

As for the quietness, there's just no way that this game could generate a buzz. Monday night, very bad Grizzlies team, bad Knicks team, Knicks lost the last game at home. Not easy to get excited about that. The Wizards might generate a little bit more electicity though, particularly after the Knicks victory.

Like I said, we just have to be consistent, and the fans will be more consistent. A couple of years ago, the booing wasn't nearly this bad. I just think the fans are fed up with the losing and finally want to see results of all of it. You really can't blame us, and you I hope, right?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Silverfuel
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12/4/2006  11:37 PM
wow..good post.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
SugarRayRichardson
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12/4/2006  11:39 PM
Thanks for the insight. Its always such a different view being at the game vs watching on TV. Ive already said my piece on the boo birds. The fuuny thing is when we were up 15 the garden was silent
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Bippity10
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12/5/2006  10:54 AM
I hope the players stop worrying about what the fans are doing and continue to focus upon what needs to be done on the court. The rest will take care of itself.
I just hope that people will like me
MS
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12/5/2006  11:05 AM
Here is what your assessment fails to include.

Marbury brings it all upon himself.
1. If Nash, Kidd, Williams, Paul, Arenas, Hinrich, Nelson, Miller, Bibby, etc where all out there would you trade Stephon for them yes, so if you declare yourself on multiple occasions to be the best point guard in the NBA and not produce wings, don't try defensively constantly make foolish statements into the media, and have only two allstar appearances to your credit you probably shoudln't keep refering to yourself as starbury, or say you are confused how to play after 10 years in the league after you have managed to empty the garden with your poor selfish play.

2. He represents everything that is wrong with the modern day athlete and sports in general.

Curry

1. Hasn't showed improvement he has just asserted himself and played smart basketball and decided to use his brain instead of running people over, he could have done this all season but all of a sudden he is now a force, you just don't get it all of a sudden
2. He doesn't play with his head half the time, block shots, rebound, comes into camp out of shape, and undermotivated.......

The team comes out flat 90% of games and doesn't play with the normal amount of energy it does late in games, which makes no sense to the crowd........

So if your working on a job, disgracing your company half the time you perform, not living up to your potential and sulking and making exuses, you usually get fired, don't you or does your boss who is paying your salary give you constant words of encouragement when he knows your best is not being brought to the table..........

Personally I go every game, see the same **** every game, do i boo? when a team gets a third offensive rebound or a player is not paying attention and the rebound that decides the out come of the game drops into the other teams hands because our center forget he had to get a rebound......its my duty after paying $220 for the night to get up and applaud these lump of ****s that are more concerned with themselves than the fans, and their teammates.......

Will I ever boo lee, q, or balkman if they make a mistake never because those guys are constantly getting after it and helping the team....

Can you Boo if

1. In the midst of a horrible season your 5'7 pg decides to bounce the ball off the the ground in an attempt to dunk in a game that is in doubt and crucial to the team, i say yes, or when he decides he is going to come flying in and goal tend a ball not even close to going in, yea i think you can get upset.
2. If Eddy Curry give you 13 and 6 when he should give you 20 and 10 in his sleep with his skill set 75% of the time.
3. Your pg decides not to shot to prove a point that someone shooting 36% needs to play more
4. Your other pg complains after every single call
5. Jamal Crawford carries the ball, takes off balance shots not running the offense, etc, etc


Marv
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12/5/2006  11:09 AM
the fans have cheered consistently for 2 things - hustle and smart basketball. the tolerance for poor effort and dumb play has gone way down. the knicks are getting called on every lack of effort and lack of smarts they show out there. there's not much of a margin of error anymore because the knicks have played mostly very poor basketball for several seasons running. the cheers are in their hands - hustle and play smart, you'll hear cheers. every time you don't, you'll get booed.
playa2
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12/5/2006  11:11 AM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

The fuuny thing is when we were up 15 the garden was silent


Maybe because the fans have seen this team on more than 1 occassion allow their opponents back in games when we have a nice lead.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
BasketballJones
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12/5/2006  11:15 AM
Someone needs to tell these annoying fans to stay home with their negative energy.
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Masterplan
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12/5/2006  11:28 AM
Posted by Marv:

the fans have cheered consistently for 2 things - hustle and smart basketball. the tolerance for poor effort and dumb play has gone way down. the knicks are getting called on every lack of effort and lack of smarts they show out there. there's not much of a margin of error anymore because the knicks have played mostly very poor basketball for several seasons running. the cheers are in their hands - hustle and play smart, you'll hear cheers. every time you don't, you'll get booed.

actually, if you don't want to get booed, here are a few suggestions:

-don't be stephon marbury

-be david lee or renaldo balkman

-if you are anyone else, do what Marv said
PresIke
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12/5/2006  12:25 PM
Posted by MS:

Here is what your assessment fails to include.

Marbury brings it all upon himself.
1. If Nash, Kidd, Williams, Paul, Arenas, Hinrich, Nelson, Miller, Bibby, etc where all out there would you trade Stephon for them yes, so if you declare yourself on multiple occasions to be the best point guard in the NBA and not produce wings, don't try defensively constantly make foolish statements into the media, and have only two allstar appearances to your credit you probably shoudln't keep refering to yourself as starbury, or say you are confused how to play after 10 years in the league after you have managed to empty the garden with your poor selfish play.

2. He represents everything that is wrong with the modern day athlete and sports in general.

Curry

1. Hasn't showed improvement he has just asserted himself and played smart basketball and decided to use his brain instead of running people over, he could have done this all season but all of a sudden he is now a force, you just don't get it all of a sudden
2. He doesn't play with his head half the time, block shots, rebound, comes into camp out of shape, and undermotivated.......

The team comes out flat 90% of games and doesn't play with the normal amount of energy it does late in games, which makes no sense to the crowd........

So if your working on a job, disgracing your company half the time you perform, not living up to your potential and sulking and making exuses, you usually get fired, don't you or does your boss who is paying your salary give you constant words of encouragement when he knows your best is not being brought to the table..........

Personally I go every game, see the same **** every game, do i boo? when a team gets a third offensive rebound or a player is not paying attention and the rebound that decides the out come of the game drops into the other teams hands because our center forget he had to get a rebound......its my duty after paying $220 for the night to get up and applaud these lump of ****s that are more concerned with themselves than the fans, and their teammates.......

Will I ever boo lee, q, or balkman if they make a mistake never because those guys are constantly getting after it and helping the team....

Can you Boo if

1. In the midst of a horrible season your 5'7 pg decides to bounce the ball off the the ground in an attempt to dunk in a game that is in doubt and crucial to the team, i say yes, or when he decides he is going to come flying in and goal tend a ball not even close to going in, yea i think you can get upset.
2. If Eddy Curry give you 13 and 6 when he should give you 20 and 10 in his sleep with his skill set 75% of the time.
3. Your pg decides not to shot to prove a point that someone shooting 36% needs to play more
4. Your other pg complains after every single call
5. Jamal Crawford carries the ball, takes off balance shots not running the offense, etc, etc

Hey, I understand fans' frustration with Marbury and Curry. I've been frustrated with them as well. It's not like I'm saying I don't know that they have done things that drive me and other fans crazy, but can you ALWAYS hold that against them? It's like we're talking about someone who went to jail, did their time and now no one can forget that they did what they did. To some extent, that's understandable because most never truly forget, and have a hard time moving beyond experiences that evoke strong emotional responses. Yet, is it worth it to dismiss good play from these players because one cannot forget what they have done?

Basically what you are saying for the most part is that you can't forgive these players unless they start doing exactly what you expected them to, and if they do anything that reminds you of what it sounds like you might be thinking -- which is predisposed to believing that you see the past as more than enough justification to boo (which is supported by your propensity to exude a great deal of anger and resentment in your posts, along with others), you will will use that mindset to justify the booing.

Consider if you were a worker under someone that treats workers like you treat Marbury and Curry as a manager and your made mistakes or were inexperienced and your higher up told your boss that they need to keep you on, or you were a close relative of the owner (meaning you can't be fired). What would be the point of treating you as a workers poorly, since you are probably not going anywhere? Why not give you as a worker every opportunity to turn yourself around, rather than berade you for every mistake out of their resentment towards you? And then even when you do well, other workers or observers still won't give you credit, or see this as growth because they can't stop holding onto their past view of you either.

I don't sense much benefit to constantly taking our your anger at the targets of disdain. You mention my ignoring your points, yet Marbury and Curry did VERY GOOD JOBS yesterday. So if that's the case, what does the past have anything to do with yesterday's performance? How about giving a player a chance to make mistakes if they overall do well?

I think it is unfortunate that for many UK Mafia-ish members no amount of evidence appears to be sufficient to be even willing to admit that guys like Curry or Marbury are allowed ANY slack. No turnovers allowed. No runs by the other opponent. No bad decisions, etc. That's just flat out unrealistic, for ANY team or player. I'm not saying I'm pleased with the mistakes either, and if they look worse, than I'm all for the criticism. I criticize players and play as well. Check my record, but I am also willing to recognize that there are some signs of hope, although it could also get worse. Yet, to ignore all positives seems like an example of putting blinders on.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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12/5/2006  12:27 PM
Posted by Marv:

the fans have cheered consistently for 2 things - hustle and smart basketball. the tolerance for poor effort and dumb play has gone way down. the knicks are getting called on every lack of effort and lack of smarts they show out there. there's not much of a margin of error anymore because the knicks have played mostly very poor basketball for several seasons running. the cheers are in their hands - hustle and play smart, you'll hear cheers. every time you don't, you'll get booed.

No they have not. I was at the game yesterday and this is a flat out myth. Marbury and Curry were hustling yesterday and it was obvious. Yet that made no difference to those who booed them the instant they made what seemed like a mistake, which were FEW AND FAR IN BEWTEEN in a game where both players contributed positively and heavily to the team's win.

Check my response to MS, Marv. You appear to fall into the same category my friend.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
MS
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12/5/2006  12:34 PM
I am not booing steph i want him to do well, but he went to jail did his time and still came out with the starbury **** this year and last so he is not a very smart man i get it, his mother always tells him its not his fault, he felt he could take advantage of the situation with isiah in his corner, but he needs to be more aggressive, like isiah said the pg has 2-3 mintues every quarter when he needs to take over, he is making the effort to pass and get people involved which helps other players make the effort.....stop playing like a bonehead your not that great anymore just play ball shoot your mouth and let the people embrace you

i think the real problem is the four guard rotation it gives very little chance to get in a rythm out there and really doesn't allow players to play their game when they are constantly pulled in and out of games
TMS
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12/5/2006  1:10 PM
here's the solution to the problem of the quiet fans at MSG:
keep winning games & playing good, tough, hard nosed basketball...

do that, & they will come & they will cheer

otherwise, you're going to hear the boos, you're going to get the apathetic corporate fan at the games instead of the true hard core fans who live & breathe this team... you reap what you sow in this game.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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12/5/2006  1:14 PM
Posted by PresIke:

I think it is unfortunate that for many UK Mafia-ish members no amount of evidence appears to be sufficient to be even willing to admit that guys like Curry or Marbury are allowed ANY slack.

on the contrary PresIke, Marbury has been allowed way TOO MUCH slack over the past 2 & a half years, & now the fans are growing tired of all the excuses & comments to the media & just want to see him shut up & play... so yes, you can expect fans to be on his case for the rest of the time he's here unless he does something to reverse their opinions of him that are all well-deserved based on years of watching this guy & how he conducts himself... for that Marbury has no one else to blame but himself.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Marv
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12/5/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Marv:

the fans have cheered consistently for 2 things - hustle and smart basketball. the tolerance for poor effort and dumb play has gone way down. the knicks are getting called on every lack of effort and lack of smarts they show out there. there's not much of a margin of error anymore because the knicks have played mostly very poor basketball for several seasons running. the cheers are in their hands - hustle and play smart, you'll hear cheers. every time you don't, you'll get booed.

No they have not. I was at the game yesterday and this is a flat out myth. Marbury and Curry were hustling yesterday and it was obvious. Yet that made no difference to those who booed them the instant they made what seemed like a mistake, which were FEW AND FAR IN BEWTEEN in a game where both players contributed positively and heavily to the team's win.

Check my response to MS, Marv. You appear to fall into the same category my friend.

pres,

in eddy curry you have a "franchise center," a 6'11" 285 lb. supposed beast who we gave up a #2 overall and another heading-for-lottery pick for, who in half his games this year (10/20) has delivered 6 or fewer rebounds. and in 15 out of 20 games has delivered 0 blocks.

in stephon marbury you have a $16M plus 'franchise' point guard, who in 10 of 20 games this season has produced 4 or fewer assists. he's untradable and we have him for another 3 seasons, when his salary will be over $21M.

neither of these guys plays d.

neither of these guys are known for playing heads-up ball.

they've been at the forefront of a 7-13 record after a 23-win season last year.

i'd say it's pretty reasonable that they should both expect to have to produce consistent effort and results and sustain it for a period of time before they should expect consistent cheers from the crowd.

i think they've earned the lack of faith that the fans have in them. i still say it's in their hands to earn it back, on the court, by proving that they're going to consistently raise their performances above the lousy standards that they've exhibited for most of this season and last.
joec32033
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12/5/2006  1:25 PM
in eddy curry you have a "franchise center," a 6'11" 285 lb. supposed beast who we gave up a #2 overall and another heading-for-lottery pick for, who in half his games this year (10/20) has delivered 6 or fewer rebounds. and in 15 out of 20 games has delivered 0 blocks.

Not to hijack the thread, but Marv, I like your phrasing of the deal better than giving up Ty Thomas and another #1. Technically we passed on just about everyone but Bargniani-and there is no telling who we would have picked at #2(although I have personally think it would have been Roy).

Like I said, don't mean to hijack or argue or anything like that, but not alot of people phrase it the way Marv did, which is probably the correct way to evaluate the deal one way or the other.
~You can't run from who you are.~
TMS
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12/5/2006  1:48 PM
Curry just put up 20+ over 7 straight... i think most teams that picked #2 or lower would be more than happy w/that type of production out of their lottery pick.
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joec32033
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12/6/2006  1:22 AM
Posted by TMS:

Curry just put up 20+ over 7 straight... i think most teams that picked #2 or lower would be more than happy w/that type of production out of their lottery pick.

I agree. But I don't think you can compare because Curry is in his 4th year.

Let me ask you this, who would you rather have

Brandon Roy and Joakim Noah or Eddy Curry?
~You can't run from who you are.~
Just came back from NY-MEM...my take on the game, the fans, etc.

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