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Marbury's play and his status w/Knick fans reminds me of Ewing's last years w/the team
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PresIke
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11/30/2006  3:06 PM
Although not exactly...because it's worse, and this in no way deflects blame from Stephon at all either.

Remember how the growing rhetoric towards the last years of Ewing's career was that he made everyone worse, hence the boos, and perspective that once Pat was gone the new guys at the time(Houston, Spree and Camby...and maybe even Childs) who had thrived in the '99 run by running the ball more, etc. had planted the seed in many fans head that the team was better off without him?

The difference here, firstly, is that Stephon has had that same reputation for some time in the NBA now. But there were more Knick fans who believed he could be a part of a winner, than not, despite the critics strong voice. This ties into the second point why there is a difference because Steph has not really been a part of a winner, where as Ewing had clearly carried the Knicks to the finals in '94 and had been a MAJOR part of the Knicks winning for 10 years up until '99-'00 when you started hearing the boos.

However, Marbury has now convinced many more that he is hurting the team than ever before with Knick fans, because of what seems like not just detrimental play but an appearance to more and more that his game is declining fast. That's the major similarity I see. Otherwise Ewing gets CLEARLY more props than Marbury as a Knick for all of the hard work, dedication and winning he put into the team. Marbury, sadly, has not had that and now that the signs of decline are appearing his "harm" to the team seems exacerbated, and I think hard to change...meaning if he doesn't start to show some consistent signs of improvement soon it would be in the team's best interest to move him when they can.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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bigpimpin
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11/30/2006  3:08 PM
Although not exactly

right.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
simrud
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11/30/2006  11:20 PM
lol, its just like a banana, but its not yellow, tastes like apple, and is fat free.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Solace
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12/1/2006  7:27 AM
I see the parallels, but those are two totally different situations. Ewings was age-related, that people felt he was slowing down the team. In the end, we realized we needed Ewing, ... just the Ewing of five years prior. Ewing was and still is one of our favorites,... ever.

Steph, on the other hand, has lost a few steps this year, okay, but... most of us feel that his attitude, and not any physical traits, are the reason why he hurts the team so much. Since he will never buy into the team concept, we want him gone. Additionally, we actually ARE a better team without Steph on the court.

So, no, two completely different situations.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Swishfm3
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12/1/2006  8:42 AM
Give Ewing all the credit if you want, but Ewing had an awesome team around him. Not only that...He also had great coaches here during his tenure. Marbury NEVER had that. (He came close with the Suns)

Steph will never buy into the team concept?? What is he doing now? What was he doing last year before Brown started talking shiit to the press?
Please show your evidence that the Knicks are better with Marbury on the bench...
izybx
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12/1/2006  8:55 AM
Posted by Swishfm3:

Give Ewing all the credit if you want, but Ewing had an awesome team around him. Not only that...He also had great coaches here during his tenure. Marbury NEVER had that. (He came close with the Suns)

Steph will never buy into the team concept?? What is he doing now? What was he doing last year before Brown started talking shiit to the press?
Please show your evidence that the Knicks are better with Marbury on the bench...

Open your eyes dude. I think the better question is show one game this season where the Knicks are better with Marbury not on the bench.
Beat the Evil Empire. BEAT MIAMI
oohah
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12/1/2006  9:01 AM
Posted by Swishfm3:

Give Ewing all the credit if you want, but Ewing had an awesome team around him. Not only that...He also had great coaches here during his tenure. Marbury NEVER had that. (He came close with the Suns)

Steph will never buy into the team concept?? What is he doing now? What was he doing last year before Brown started talking shiit to the press?
Please show your evidence that the Knicks are better with Marbury on the bench...

Ewing never had an awesome team around him. Never. When he had a good team around him he went deep into the playoffs or the finals. He never had a second superstar to pick up the slack. He never had his Pippen or Kobe.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-12-2006 09:02 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Swishfm3
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12/1/2006  10:04 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Swishfm3:

Give Ewing all the credit if you want, but Ewing had an awesome team around him. Not only that...He also had great coaches here during his tenure. Marbury NEVER had that. (He came close with the Suns)

Steph will never buy into the team concept?? What is he doing now? What was he doing last year before Brown started talking shiit to the press?
Please show your evidence that the Knicks are better with Marbury on the bench...

Ewing never had an awesome team around him. Never. When he had a good team around him he went deep into the playoffs or the finals. He never had a second superstar to pick up the slack. He never had his Pippen or Kobe.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-12-2006 09:02 AM]

Who was Olajuwon second superstar? Detroits?

in the 90's...Ewing had a wonderful cast. Harper, Starks, Mason, OAKLEY!!!...and later in his career he Camby, Sprewell, Houston and Larry Johnson. I don't blame him for the Knicks shortcomings (coaches) but I am NOT going to give him all the credit either....
oohah
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12/1/2006  10:27 AM
Who was Olajuwon second superstar? Detroits?

I hate to say it, but Olajuwan at his best was better than Ewing at his best. The year we went to the finals they both had no true supporting superstar, Olajuwan was better. However, if Starks had not had his worst game ever, things might be different. Then the next year Olajuwan had Drexler, who retired as an all-star level player, definitely better than Olajuwan's wingman in his first Championship season.

Detroit had both Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, both HOF players. They had Rodman, HOF. Laimbeer was an all-star. That team was stacked. Extremely talented. Let put it like this: If Starks was anywhere near as good as Joe Dumars, Houston does not beat the Knicks.
in the 90's...Ewing had a wonderful cast. Harper, Starks, Mason, OAKLEY!!!...and later in his career he Camby, Sprewell, Houston and Larry Johnson. I don't blame him for the Knicks shortcomings (coaches) but I am NOT going to give him all the credit either....

I'm not sure what you mean about the shortcomings and credit. All I am saying is that if Ewing had had his "Scottie Pippen", maybe we have a championship. The Knicks never got him the level of talent he needed until his later years, and then he was broken down already. We never had the real LJ either. We had the injury-remade LJ, kinda like Miami had the injury-remade Majerle.

Starks and Oakley were nice players, but both were pretty limited. Both were prone to making boneheaded plays too. You could count on Oakley to throw a behind the back pass out of bounds late in a big game. Starks was tough as nails, but he was overmatched against bigger and more talented shooting guards frequently. That was why Riley insituted the murderball style, because of the talent gap.

We always got beat by more skilled, more talented team. I like toughness, but talent has to come with it.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Swishfm3
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12/1/2006  10:34 AM
Posted by oohah:
Who was Olajuwon second superstar? Detroits?

I hate to say it, but Olajuwan at his best was better than Ewing at his best. The year we went to the finals they both had no true supporting superstar, Olajuwan was better. However, if Starks had not had his worst game ever, things might be different. Then the next year Olajuwan had Drexler, who retired as an all-star level player, definitely better than Olajuwan's wingman in his first Championship season.

Detroit had both Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, both HOF players. They had Rodman, HOF. Laimbeer was an all-star. That team was stacked. Extremely talented. Let put it like this: If Starks was anywhere near as good as Joe Dumars, Houston does not beat the Knicks.
in the 90's...Ewing had a wonderful cast. Harper, Starks, Mason, OAKLEY!!!...and later in his career he Camby, Sprewell, Houston and Larry Johnson. I don't blame him for the Knicks shortcomings (coaches) but I am NOT going to give him all the credit either....

I'm not sure what you mean about the shortcomings and credit. All I am saying is that if Ewing had had his "Scottie Pippen", maybe we have a championship. The Knicks never got him the level of talent he needed until his later years, and then he was broken down already. We never had the real LJ either. We had the injury-remade LJ, kinda like Miami had the injury-remade Majerle.

Starks and Oakley were nice players, but both were pretty limited. Both were prone to making boneheaded plays too. You could count on Oakley to throw a behind the back pass out of bounds late in a big game. Starks was tough as nails, but he was overmatched against bigger and more talented shooting guards frequently. That was why Riley insituted the murderball style, because of the talent gap.

We always got beat by more skilled, more talented team. I like toughness, but talent has to come with it.

oohah

I was referring to this past Detroit team.....I don't 100% agree with you but I see what you're saying.
Rich
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12/1/2006  10:41 AM
Ewing had legitimate grievances. Steph's are imaginary.

[Edited by - Rich on 12-01-2006 10:41 AM]
Solace
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12/1/2006  10:57 AM
Posted by Swishfm3:

Steph will never buy into the team concept?? What is he doing now? What was he doing last year before Brown started talking shiit to the press?
Please show your evidence that the Knicks are better with Marbury on the bench...

Welcome to the twilight zone.

Marbury doesn't buy into the team concept; he's playing like crap and bitching to the press. He's been a problem EVERYWHERE he's been with EVERY coach he's had. I seriously think even Dennis Rodman would be a better fit for team chemistry.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
bigpimpin
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12/1/2006  11:20 AM
Swish, you let dude talk you out your game. I am so disappointed in you.

Anyways, I do not see any revelance to the two stories. Ewing had accomplished and proven himself in NY. Step hasn't.

"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
PresIke
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12/1/2006  11:42 AM
I pretty much expected this to garner the kinds of responses I've read from some. If you can see the types of similaries I'm referring to, I believe they are there. As I said multiple times in the original post, OF COURSE there are obvious differences. Yet, that doesn't make the similarities any less true.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
TMS
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12/1/2006  12:46 PM
Posted by PresIke:

Remember how the growing rhetoric towards the last years of Ewing's career was that he made everyone worse, hence the boos, and perspective that once Pat was gone the new guys at the time(Houston, Spree and Camby...and maybe even Childs) who had thrived in the '99 run by running the ball more, etc. had planted the seed in many fans head that the team was better off without him?

The difference here, firstly, is that Stephon has had that same reputation for some time in the NBA now. But there were more Knick fans who believed he could be a part of a winner, than not, despite the critics strong voice. This ties into the second point why there is a difference because Steph has not really been a part of a winner, where as Ewing had clearly carried the Knicks to the finals in '94 and had been a MAJOR part of the Knicks winning for 10 years up until '99-'00 when you started hearing the boos.

However, Marbury has now convinced many more that he is hurting the team than ever before with Knick fans, because of what seems like not just detrimental play but an appearance to more and more that his game is declining fast. That's the major similarity I see. Otherwise Ewing gets CLEARLY more props than Marbury as a Knick for all of the hard work, dedication and winning he put into the team. Marbury, sadly, has not had that and now that the signs of decline are appearing his "harm" to the team seems exacerbated, and I think hard to change...meaning if he doesn't start to show some consistent signs of improvement soon it would be in the team's best interest to move him when they can.

the team has been on a steady decline ever since Ewing left & Marbury's done nothing in his time here to reverse that trend... the differences between Ewing & Marbury can't be overstated enough.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
mythfaze
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12/1/2006  2:15 PM
Posted by PresIke:

I pretty much expected this to garner the kinds of responses I've read from some. If you can see the types of similaries I'm referring to, I believe they are there. As I said multiple times in the original post, OF COURSE there are obvious differences. Yet, that doesn't make the similarities any less true.

Any comparison of Marbury to Ewing makes me cringe.
PresIke
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12/1/2006  2:48 PM
It can make you cringe, because clearly Ewing is a Knick legend, where as Marbury is seen as a goat. Before I wrote the post, it was those similarities of how the demise in one's ability (or perception of it), and the question of the loss of hope for fans that you will ever be either what you were or could have been with the team, and how that might exacerbate your own self-confidence or interest in trying to prove yourself anymore.

It's kind of like feeling like you have someone who keeps expecting you to be something greater than you might be able to be, and if you don't meet those expectations what the effects are on you, the team, and your game. In that regard, both Ewing and Marbury had high expectations placed upon them, yet for all of Ewing's greatness, there were plenty of fans who saw him as not being as great as they wanted (which was to win a title for the Knicks) and that's what led to the beginnings of seeming defensive, people booing him, and his eventual request for a trade. For Marbury, it was his job to most fans to turn the franchise around. He hasn't so hence comes the same booing, defensive behavior -- FAR worse than Ewing though --, seeming harm to the teams play, and who knows what down the road.

I see A-Rod's situation as somewhat comparable as well.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Solace
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12/1/2006  3:05 PM
Posted by mythfaze:
Posted by PresIke:

I pretty much expected this to garner the kinds of responses I've read from some. If you can see the types of similaries I'm referring to, I believe they are there. As I said multiple times in the original post, OF COURSE there are obvious differences. Yet, that doesn't make the similarities any less true.

Any comparison of Marbury to Ewing makes me cringe.

I truly cringed when we made the trade, and Isiah as well as the fans made statements that equated to Marbury being our first franchise player since Ewing. I sat there stunned, that if they expected to get to the NBA championship with Marbury as the franchise player, they were going to fall far short. So far that's been true.

Pres, I see the similarities, in that the fans had wanted Ewing out because they felt it would improve the team, and that's the same as Marbury. Where it differs, again, is the circumstances surrounding why the fans feel that to be true, and the dark cloud that Marbury has cast over this franchise. So, while I see your similarity, it takes a bit of tunnel vision, because there's a lot more to the picture.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
PresIke
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12/1/2006  3:23 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by mythfaze:
Posted by PresIke:

I pretty much expected this to garner the kinds of responses I've read from some. If you can see the types of similaries I'm referring to, I believe they are there. As I said multiple times in the original post, OF COURSE there are obvious differences. Yet, that doesn't make the similarities any less true.

Any comparison of Marbury to Ewing makes me cringe.

I truly cringed when we made the trade, and Isiah as well as the fans made statements that equated to Marbury being our first franchise player since Ewing. I sat there stunned, that if they expected to get to the NBA championship with Marbury as the franchise player, they were going to fall far short. So far that's been true.

Pres, I see the similarities, in that the fans had wanted Ewing out because they felt it would improve the team, and that's the same as Marbury. Where it differs, again, is the circumstances surrounding why the fans feel that to be true, and the dark cloud that Marbury has cast over this franchise. So, while I see your similarity, it takes a bit of tunnel vision, because there's a lot more to the picture.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it is a necessity to have tunnel vision. Honestly, I agree that the situation with Ewing is far worse because of the history he had with the team. But that's part of the point actually. That even with a guy like Ewing who did so much for the francise, that some Knick fans were willing to rail on him, and as a resultt Ewing wanted outta here. My question is a more of a self-awareness check for Knick fans. Are we more swift to boo those we have the highest expectations for and does that increase the propensity for those that don't reach those expectations to resort to their own frustration with the situation, and inability to meet those expectations?



[Edited by - PresIke on 12-01-2006 3:23 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
MS
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12/1/2006  3:27 PM
Ewing never had an awesome team around him laughable

97 LJ, Starks, Oakly, Houston, two great defenders at the pg position Ward Childs

99 LJ, Sprewell, Houston, Camby, Thomas, Childs, Wards, Dudley you give me a team with depth like that, with defenders, rebounders, slasher, shooters (Injured LJ in the finals, hurt Childs, no Ewing lets remember)

come on watch the games....
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