and the intangibles that go with a great TEAM like Detroit circa 2000 isn't as well. So all of this jibber about playing hard, Channing's in a slump, Eddy could not get on the court this week, bruce bowen gave me a boo boo etc.. means little. The lead guards are on their way DOWN interms of production--the frontcourt players arent at the level of other superior players and while we have an advantage in depth because we spent 150MM in still doesnt change the reality--the team as constructed is not a winner. If the ultimate goal is to get to .500, maybe in a couple of years theyll get there???? but is that the goal?


Isiah Thomas=Donald Rumsfeld====failed and you must go--we need change and fresh views.

So far the results have not been good. There's no denying that, other than a few bright spots. I'm not personally happy or satistifed with the outcome thus far, but we'll have to see how it pans out. This is a tough stretch, schedule wise, both in terms of who we are playing and the number of games, when compared to some other teams. It would be nice to have some more home games as well, but these "excuses" will be settled as the season plays out.

My feeling has always been that I can't rail on Isiah TOO much because the mandate for what he has done comes from above. If the Knicks had an owner with a clue maybe we could have "blown it up" or waited it out after Layden was fired. Really, the poor trend began when Ewing was traded, when we probably should have just let his contract end and start over, or at least rebuild more on the fly.

The problem was that the perception that NY fans couldn't take a "rebuild" was constantly iterated, and the pressure to get playoff games at MSG was so high that other ideas about how to re-create the team were mostly dismissed. In hindsight it's easy to assess blame all around, but no one knew for sure what would work and what wouldn't. There were plenty of examples of teams that "blew it up," a la the Bulls, who struggled for years afterwards, so I can somewhat understand why Dolan was against that method. Isiah is just the bookend of an era that I hold him responsible for playing a significant part in, but in the end it's Dolan's money and habits that have been driving the approach.

Dolan may be foolish when it comes to B-Ball, but he's a grown man who should have been listening to a wider range of opinion in my view. However, he may have been doing so and chose to ignore it because it seemed harder. So far it has not looked like the choice he made has worked too well -- although it's not quite over yet, and maybe things will turn around this year -- but I believe that it isn't Isiah who has been Rumsfeld, because Dolan had the same approach under Layden.

It's Dolan, Dolan, Dolan.

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:34 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:34 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:37 PM]

Posted by PresIke:

So far the results have not been good. There's no denying that, other than a few bright spots. I'm not personally happy or satistifed with the outcome thus far, but we'll have to see how it pans out. This is a tough stretch, schedule wise, both in terms of who we are playing and the number of games, when compared to some other teams. It would be nice to have some more home games as well, but these "excuses" will be settled as the season plays out.

My feeling has always been that I can't rail on Isiah TOO much because the mandate for what he has done comes from above. If the Knicks had an owner with a clue maybe we could have "blown it up" or waited it out after Layden was fired. Really, the poor trend began when Ewing was traded, when we probably should have just let his contract end and start over, or at least rebuild more on the fly.

The problem was that the perception that NY fans couldn't take a "rebuild" was constantly iterated, and the pressure to get playoff games at MSG was so high that other ideas about how to re-create the team were mostly dismissed. In hindsight it's easy to assess blame all around, but no one knew for sure what would work and what wouldn't. There were plenty of examples of teams that "blew it up," a la the Bulls, who struggled for years afterwards, so I can somewhat understand why Dolan was against that method. Isiah is just the bookend of an era that I hold him responsible for playing a significant part in, but in the end it's Dolan's money and habits that have been driving the approach.

Dolan may be foolish when it comes to B-Ball, but he's a grown man who should have been listening to a wider range of opinion in my view. However, he may have been doing so and chose to ignore it because it seemed harder. So far it has not looked like the choice he made has worked too well -- although it's not quite over yet, and maybe things will turn around this year -- but I believe that it isn't Isiah who has been Rumsfeld, because Dolan had the same approach under Layden.

It's Dolan, Dolan, Dolan.

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:34 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:34 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:37 PM]

It's OK to rebuild if you get the *right* players. We have to many wrong players. A HUGE HUGE part of this team is Curry Frye and I don't have to sell anyone--those are not championship caliber frontcourt players. He ll Channing frye looks like he needs two weeks in the NBDL right about now--honestly.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 11-12-2006 4:40 PM]

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by djsunyc:

dolan's an idiot but he's not telling isiah exactly WHO he should go after. he didn't tell him to trade 2 #1's for marbury or eddy. or give jerome $30 mil for 5 years. he may have told isiah to try to win now, but isiah's the guy that went after these particular players with no rhyme or reason.

Yes, but in the end it is Dolan's hire. Regardless of Isiah's moves, no GM/President has the leeway to do what he wants. Limitations MUST be part of the equation, and you have to expect that Dolan gave Isiah carte blanche to do what he wanted. It's like what the Dems did by giving Bush the approval for the Iraq War when there should have been FAR more scrutiny over the viability and risk involved in such an endeavor.

Other owners don't allow their GM's such financial freedom. Logically we have to assume that most owners hand down a mandate on what a GM can do, and in the end have to approve moves that involve taking on big dollars and long contracts. If not, then why do most teams NOT take on those deals? Is it JUST because we think they are "smarter" and "cap aware?" I highly doubt that, because the Knicks operate very much like the Yankees, but have to work around the cap, while other teams in smaller cities have less revenue, and genearlly less capital to work with, so their GM's act likewise.

The Blazers used to spend big time because they had the money, just like the Mavs too. They have adjusted their ways earlier than the Knicks, especially the Blazers, because of the backlash from fans, and revenue concerns. The Knicks, because they are a NYC team are almost ALWAYS going to have big revenues compared to other teams, so the pressure to change was just not as prominent. The bottom line is that "the bottom line" is what rules teams decisions and owners have probably hired GM's who work with their financial limitiations. I think we just give too much credit to some GM's or assess too much blame, when it may be other forces, particularly economic, that are also playing a prominent role in team decisi

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:49 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:50 PM]

no doubt. dolan is an idiot, who is surrounded by idiots. aren't you glad to be a knicks fan?

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by djsunyc:

dolan's an idiot but he's not telling isiah exactly WHO he should go after. he didn't tell him to trade 2 #1's for marbury or eddy. or give jerome $30 mil for 5 years. he may have told isiah to try to win now, but isiah's the guy that went after these particular players with no rhyme or reason.

Yes, but in the end it is Dolan's hire. Regardless of Isiah's moves, no GM/President has the leeway to do what he wants. Limitations MUST be part of the equation, and you have to expect that Dolan gave Isiah carte blanche to do what he wanted. It's like what the Dems did by giving Bush the approval for the Iraq War when there should have been FAR more scrutiny over the viability and risk involved in such an endeavor.

Other owners don't allow their GM's such financial freedom. Logically we have to assume that most owners hand down a mandate on what a GM can do, and in the end have to approve moves that involve taking on big dollars and long contracts. If not, then why do most teams NOT take on those deals? Is it JUST because we think they are "smarter" and "cap aware?" I highly doubt that, because the Knicks operate very much like the Yankees, but have to work around the cap, while other teams in smaller cities have less revenue, and genearlly less capital to work with, so their GM's act likewise.

The Blazers used to spend big time because they had the money, just like the Mavs too. They have adjusted their ways earlier than the Knicks, especially the Blazers, because of the backlash from fans, and revenue concerns. The Knicks, because they are a NYC team are almost ALWAYS going to have big revenues compared to other teams, so the pressure to change was just not as prominent. The bottom line is that "the bottom line" is what rules teams decisions and owners have probably hired GM's who work with their financial limitiations. I think we just give too much credit to some GM's or assess too much blame, when it may be other forces, particularly economic, that are also playing a prominent role in team decisi

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:49 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-12-2006 4:50 PM]

no doubt. dolan is an idiot, who is surrounded by idiots. aren't you glad to be a knicks fan?

Oh, I'm jumping for joy, dj. If we could just figure out a way to get Dolan to sell the team...

Problem with the team is superior talent level isnt there

the fact that they dont play hard doesnt help either