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Givin' It a Shot -- Rebuilding w/o Isiah
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bobs3304
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10/27/2006  12:24 AM
I hope this doesnt come across as 1 of those RGM trade posts, but I think more down-to-earth Knick fans should give it some thought caz we all know this year will probly end up in the lottery.


I think it's a given that Dolan will never purposely let any Knick team lose. That's why Brown was fired.....probly b/c he gaged that Dolan would never allow them to if he asked.


I mean there's hope, it's just a real tender situation -- you have to finesse it.


I think it goes without saying ATLEAST Curry or Frye has to be traded.

Same goes with Marbury or Francis.

For the record I'd keep Frye and Francis...


The team was built so ass-backwards that it'll be hard to undo the damage that Layden and now Isiah has done.


We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?


I mean, is 3rd time a charm for us? Is Dolan REALLY that incompetent. Does he suck ass that much? Is he gonna continue to just pick GM's b/c he wants to hang out with them?


It looks like 2009 is the year for FA for us. I dont think thats gonna be good enough though. Lebron and Wade have a 2 % chance of signing here........for the obvious reasons.

We should be planning for SENSICAL sht. Not fantasy in the clouds crap.


One way or the other we should really try and get a top 5-7 pick before 2009. That way we're in position to not only have a lottery talent, but also a big FA.

That's basically the quickest way to rebuild IMO.


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 10-27-2006 12:26 AM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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Rich
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10/27/2006  12:25 AM
Brown was fired because he tanked, not because he wanted to rebuild.
bobs3304
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10/27/2006  12:28 AM
Posted by Rich:

Brown was fired because he tanked, not because he wanted to rebuild.

finish that thought bud...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Rich
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10/27/2006  12:47 AM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by Rich:

Brown was fired because he tanked, not because he wanted to rebuild.

finish that thought bud...

I agree with the premise that the Knicks have players with redundant skill sets, but I don't agree with your point that Larry was fired because he wanted to rebuild.

But even accepting your point for the sake of argument, what was the point of trying to lose when Larry knew that the Knicks would have to give the Bulls their 1st round pick? That proves that Larry is a duplicitous p.o.s.

At this point, I think Dolan understands that a rebuilding process is necessary, but part of the reason that the Knicks are in this position is because I think it's likely that Dolan told Isiah that he couldn't rebuild when he was originally hired, which is probably the reason that he traded for Marbury. As proof, all one needs to do is to recall Dolan's statement at Isiah's introductory press conference, in which he made clear that the goal was to make the playoffs that year.
BlueSeats
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10/27/2006  12:54 AM
I wonder what course we'd have taken had Marbury not been readily available at the time. For better or worse, I suspect it would have started with 'Sheed.
4949
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10/27/2006  1:03 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

I hope this doesnt come across as 1 of those RGM trade posts, but I think more down-to-earth Knick fans should give it some thought caz we all know this year will probly end up in the lottery.

You mean the 'bulls' lottery.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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10/27/2006  1:10 AM
We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

You know, I will' ask this question, regarding this thought. With all of the GM's and Coaches and players we have had, lets' say since Ewing left us, could we really of had some of the worst people play for us? I have to ask if maybe it's the NYC atmosphere and/or maybe the fans and media that have a certain affect on these people, were they can't do they're thing, because there is just too much damn whinning and demanding from all of us, I mean do these people really suk or is it that WE really suk? In all fairness, I think this question needs to be asked! Don't you?
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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10/27/2006  12:21 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

to be fair, Isiah's been a very good judge of young talent since he got here for the most part... you want to see a horrible GM in terms of the draft? Michael Jordan = Kwame Brown... 'nuff said.
Is Dolan REALLY that incompetent. Does he suck ass that much?

yes, & yes

It looks like 2009 is the year for FA for us. I dont think thats gonna be good enough though. Lebron and Wade have a 2 % chance of signing here........for the obvious reasons.

We should be planning for SENSICAL sht. Not fantasy in the clouds crap.


One way or the other we should really try and get a top 5-7 pick before 2009. That way we're in position to not only have a lottery talent, but also a big FA.

That's basically the quickest way to rebuild IMO.

that's only if you have competent people making competent personnel decisions for your organization... you can get top lottery pick after top lottery pick but still suck like the Hawks & Warriors have for years on end otherwise.

the best way to rebuild is to bring in a guy like Jerry West, who has a PROVEN track record of building champions... i wouldn't even mind allowing Isiah to continue coaching this group if that were to happen... he seems to have the respect of everyone on the roster & he knows how to get through to each of them in his own way... he's got a good knowledge of how to relate to today's player while still maintaining a strictness of authority so they know they can't just cruise when they're on the floor.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TheGame
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10/27/2006  12:38 PM
Posted by 4949:
We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

You know, I will' ask this question, regarding this thought. With all of the GM's and Coaches and players we have had, lets' say since Ewing left us, could we really of had some of the worst people play for us? I have to ask if maybe it's the NYC atmosphere and/or maybe the fans and media that have a certain affect on these people, were they can't do they're thing, because there is just too much damn whinning and demanding from all of us, I mean do these people really suk or is it that WE really suk? In all fairness, I think this question needs to be asked! Don't you?

This is a good question because the pressure on a NY team is far greater than most teams in the league. Does that pressure mean that no GM can really rebuild? In all honesty, IT did rebuild the team. The team is full of young players. He just could not do a crash and burn rebuild like the Bulls, and was forced to get a Marbury. In fact, this was the same reason he went and got LB, even knowing that Marbury and LB was a match made in h*ll. The media hammered IT for six months about not having any player taller than 6'8'' so he goes and grabs an underachieving JJ1. The media hammered the team for not having any defensive players, so IT goes out and gets pure defensive players this summer. Are the fans and the media the ones pushing all the bad trades? Interesting question. I think not because IT needs to act as the GM and do what he thinks needs to be done, regardless of the fan or media backlash. However, I do agree that the fans and media are not helping the situation, but hey that's NY.

Trust the Process
Bippity10
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10/27/2006  12:45 PM
Posted by 4949:
We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

You know, I will' ask this question, regarding this thought. With all of the GM's and Coaches and players we have had, lets' say since Ewing left us, could we really of had some of the worst people play for us? I have to ask if maybe it's the NYC atmosphere and/or maybe the fans and media that have a certain affect on these people, were they can't do they're thing, because there is just too much damn whinning and demanding from all of us, I mean do these people really suk or is it that WE really suk? In all fairness, I think this question needs to be asked! Don't you?

I think it has more to do with not building a "team". We have just been slapping teams together. This puts people in roles that they are not capable of doing. Examples:

Marbs: Is a great player but not a leader. We made him the face of the franchise. This is why he failed

Francis, Craw, Nate, Marbs, Jalen: on the same team with guys that do the same thing. So when they are on the court they are unable to do the things they are comfortable with

MRose, Taylor, Othella, Spoon etc-Great role players that we have tried to thrust into starting roles. They failed. They also have ahd to fight for time with 8 guys that do the same things they do. Thus inconsistent minutes. Inconsistent play

PF's & c's-Great offensive player, poor defender. OUr lack of defensive players means we need shot blockers in the front court. Because none of our guys have been shotblockers their weaknesses have been exposed by our perimeter defense

Guards-Just reverse the above.

Until we build a team in which all our players compliment each other. Where each guys role is to offset the weaknesses of the team all our guys will fail here and shine somewhere else where they are playing their role. You must as a team be able to score, play D, rebound, shut down the perimeter, shoot jumpers, get a big stop, hit a big shot, run the break, stop the break, play the half-court, stop in the half-court, tough minded, disciplined, respect the ball. etc.

The championship team is always the team with the least amount of weaknesses. We think it's about having the "one guy". It's not. It's how your team eliminates the weaknesses. The Bulls had Jordan to score and shut down the perimeter. They had role players to do everything else. If you have Jordan lighting it up you don't need any more scoreres. We have guys that can light it up but have failed to address many of the weaknessess listed above. Until we do we will always be asking players to do what they are not capable of and will always see our players fail. Winning is not luck. Isiah saying that is nonsense. Winning is about following a plan for success!!

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 12:52 PM]
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Bippity10
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10/27/2006  12:50 PM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by 4949:
We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

You know, I will' ask this question, regarding this thought. With all of the GM's and Coaches and players we have had, lets' say since Ewing left us, could we really of had some of the worst people play for us? I have to ask if maybe it's the NYC atmosphere and/or maybe the fans and media that have a certain affect on these people, were they can't do they're thing, because there is just too much damn whinning and demanding from all of us, I mean do these people really suk or is it that WE really suk? In all fairness, I think this question needs to be asked! Don't you?

This is a good question because the pressure on a NY team is far greater than most teams in the league. Does that pressure mean that no GM can really rebuild? In all honesty, IT did rebuild the team. The team is full of young players. He just could not do a crash and burn rebuild like the Bulls, and was forced to get a Marbury. In fact, this was the same reason he went and got LB, even knowing that Marbury and LB was a match made in h*ll. The media hammered IT for six months about not having any player taller than 6'8'' so he goes and grabs an underachieving JJ1. The media hammered the team for not having any defensive players, so IT goes out and gets pure defensive players this summer. Are the fans and the media the ones pushing all the bad trades? Interesting question. I think not because IT needs to act as the GM and do what he thinks needs to be done, regardless of the fan or media backlash. However, I do agree that the fans and media are not helping the situation, but hey that's NY.

If management made a stand and said "this is our coach and GM combination" for the next five years and supported them through thick and thin(and then went out and hired proven winners) than the media and fan pressure wouldn't matter. But we hire coach's, don't support them, don't get them their type of players, don't build a team for them and then fire them every other year when they can't succeed with a team that does not match their wishes. That's where the pressure comes from. As for GM's I have gone over this topic extensively. Because we never have a Coach/GM combo we instead have two people at odds competing with each other. The GM is constantly scapegoating the coach. The coach is scapegoating the GM. They both know that if the team loses someone will be fired no matter what. Whoever loses the battle of scapegoating will be blamed and fired. This is not teamwork. This is a battle. The GM is forced by this situation to rebuild(for himself) and then starphuch in order to put the pressure back on the coach. well I got you these "stars" so you must win". This leads to the inconsistency of moves. Every "starphuch" is meant to draw pressure away and buy time in order to make a smarter move to help the team rebuild. Or pray for the "starphuch" to turn into "good luck". This has been going on for a while. Easy for some to see, not so easy for others.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 12:55 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
nixluva
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10/27/2006  1:04 PM
We actually aren't that different than a lot of teams in the league. We have some talent, but it's not a textbook prototypical team. There are only a few teams that are built in that way. With so many teams in the league its VERY hard to put together a solid team based on the textbook model. Add in the salary cap restrictions and how hard it is to make deals due to the limitations and the NBA is not in the best situation.

Isiah has in my mind done a pretty good job of remaking this roster in a short span of time. Hopefully this year we'll see the fruits of his labor. If we win games then trust will start to build. It's a long process to get to the point where the fanbase has total trust in you as a team. I think Isiah has already done a lot to get this team to start thinking and playing more as a team. It's going to take even more time to fully develop the things he's trying to teach them, but so far it seems like they're grasping the basics of it and they look better. Being in the same system and getting a consistent message is going to payoff down the road.

WIth this group Isiah is looking to play in a way that will give this team chance to win games. We clearly don't have a team full of defenders, so he's loading up on the offense and then gearing the style of play in that direction. Rather than slow the game down and having almost no chance, he's speeding it up and on many nights our mostly offensive players will be able to score enough to give us a chance to win games. We know that PHX believes in this style and other teams with weak D are trying to go that way too. Until we can address the defensive holes, we have to go with our strengths. I noticed that at times Isiah had the team play some full court pressure D. Since we have youth and team speed that made sense. We have to try and force teams to play at our pace. Instead of trying to match other teams, Isiah is looking to impose OUR WILL on teams and make them adjust to OUR PACE. We'll see if it works.
martin
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10/27/2006  2:08 PM
Posted by nixluva:

We actually aren't that different than a lot of teams in the league. We have some talent, but it's not a textbook prototypical team. There are only a few teams that are built in that way. With so many teams in the league its VERY hard to put together a solid team based on the textbook model. Add in the salary cap restrictions and how hard it is to make deals due to the limitations and the NBA is not in the best situation.

Isiah has in my mind done a pretty good job of remaking this roster in a short span of time. Hopefully this year we'll see the fruits of his labor. If we win games then trust will start to build. It's a long process to get to the point where the fanbase has total trust in you as a team. I think Isiah has already done a lot to get this team to start thinking and playing more as a team. It's going to take even more time to fully develop the things he's trying to teach them, but so far it seems like they're grasping the basics of it and they look better. Being in the same system and getting a consistent message is going to payoff down the road.

WIth this group Isiah is looking to play in a way that will give this team chance to win games. We clearly don't have a team full of defenders, so he's loading up on the offense and then gearing the style of play in that direction. Rather than slow the game down and having almost no chance, he's speeding it up and on many nights our mostly offensive players will be able to score enough to give us a chance to win games. We know that PHX believes in this style and other teams with weak D are trying to go that way too. Until we can address the defensive holes, we have to go with our strengths. I noticed that at times Isiah had the team play some full court pressure D. Since we have youth and team speed that made sense. We have to try and force teams to play at our pace. Instead of trying to match other teams, Isiah is looking to impose OUR WILL on teams and make them adjust to OUR PACE. We'll see if it works.

I'll be right back, I have to go get my Knicks sunglasses to be able to read the above. It started around where the sentence was ..."Isiah has in my mind done a pretty good job".
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gunsnewing
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10/27/2006  2:20 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

We actually aren't that different than a lot of teams in the league. We have some talent, but it's not a textbook prototypical team. There are only a few teams that are built in that way. With so many teams in the league its VERY hard to put together a solid team based on the textbook model. Add in the salary cap restrictions and how hard it is to make deals due to the limitations and the NBA is not in the best situation.

Isiah has in my mind done a pretty good job of remaking this roster in a short span of time. Hopefully this year we'll see the fruits of his labor. If we win games then trust will start to build. It's a long process to get to the point where the fanbase has total trust in you as a team. I think Isiah has already done a lot to get this team to start thinking and playing more as a team. It's going to take even more time to fully develop the things he's trying to teach them, but so far it seems like they're grasping the basics of it and they look better. Being in the same system and getting a consistent message is going to payoff down the road.

WIth this group Isiah is looking to play in a way that will give this team chance to win games. We clearly don't have a team full of defenders, so he's loading up on the offense and then gearing the style of play in that direction. Rather than slow the game down and having almost no chance, he's speeding it up and on many nights our mostly offensive players will be able to score enough to give us a chance to win games. We know that PHX believes in this style and other teams with weak D are trying to go that way too. Until we can address the defensive holes, we have to go with our strengths. I noticed that at times Isiah had the team play some full court pressure D. Since we have youth and team speed that made sense. We have to try and force teams to play at our pace. Instead of trying to match other teams, Isiah is looking to impose OUR WILL on teams and make them adjust to OUR PACE. We'll see if it works.

I'll be right back, I have to go get my Knicks sunglasses to be able to read the above. It started around where the sentence was ..."Isiah has in my mind done a pretty good job".


LOL I'd stop reading right after that
TheGame
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10/27/2006  6:02 PM
We will know who is right and who is wrong about the job IT has done in about 3 months. After about 40-50 games, we should have a sense of whether this team has a chance of developing into a contender or if it is time to start tearing it down and going in a different direction.
Trust the Process
bobs3304
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10/27/2006  7:08 PM
if we could pry colangelo from phx, that'd be a start.


we need to change not just the roster, but the culture, and given dolans recent words to isiah, i think he'd MAYBE be willing to go along with it, especially for a respected GM like him........or West.


DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
4949
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10/28/2006  1:22 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by 4949:
We really need a GOOD GM. Does anyone really put it in perspective that Dolan hired 2 of the worst sports GM's ever..........BACK TO BACK?

You know, I will' ask this question, regarding this thought. With all of the GM's and Coaches and players we have had, lets' say since Ewing left us, could we really of had some of the worst people play for us? I have to ask if maybe it's the NYC atmosphere and/or maybe the fans and media that have a certain affect on these people, were they can't do they're thing, because there is just too much damn whinning and demanding from all of us, I mean do these people really suk or is it that WE really suk? In all fairness, I think this question needs to be asked! Don't you?

This is a good question because the pressure on a NY team is far greater than most teams in the league. Does that pressure mean that no GM can really rebuild? In all honesty, IT did rebuild the team. The team is full of young players. He just could not do a crash and burn rebuild like the Bulls, and was forced to get a Marbury. In fact, this was the same reason he went and got LB, even knowing that Marbury and LB was a match made in h*ll. The media hammered IT for six months about not having any player taller than 6'8'' so he goes and grabs an underachieving JJ1. The media hammered the team for not having any defensive players, so IT goes out and gets pure defensive players this summer. Are the fans and the media the ones pushing all the bad trades? Interesting question. I think not because IT needs to act as the GM and do what he thinks needs to be done, regardless of the fan or media backlash. However, I do agree that the fans and media are not helping the situation, but hey that's NY.

If management made a stand and said "this is our coach and GM combination" for the next five years and supported them through thick and thin(and then went out and hired proven winners) than the media and fan pressure wouldn't matter. But we hire coach's, don't support them, don't get them their type of players, don't build a team for them and then fire them every other year when they can't succeed with a team that does not match their wishes. That's where the pressure comes from. As for GM's I have gone over this topic extensively. Because we never have a Coach/GM combo we instead have two people at odds competing with each other. The GM is constantly scapegoating the coach. The coach is scapegoating the GM. They both know that if the team loses someone will be fired no matter what. Whoever loses the battle of scapegoating will be blamed and fired. This is not teamwork. This is a battle. The GM is forced by this situation to rebuild(for himself) and then starphuch in order to put the pressure back on the coach. well I got you these "stars" so you must win". This leads to the inconsistency of moves. Every "starphuch" is meant to draw pressure away and buy time in order to make a smarter move to help the team rebuild. Or pray for the "starphuch" to turn into "good luck". This has been going on for a while. Easy for some to see, not so easy for others.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-27-2006 12:55 PM]

TheGame, you hit on some pretty good points on your thoughts and Bippity10, you've espressed it very well. Maybe too well, and in using the word 'pressure' several times, I got to say that I think it is our fault, the fan and media pressures that the team cannot grow in a normal way, not only that, but seems forced to make these constant bad deals. Like TheGame said, 'but that's New York'! I think it all starts with the fans and then the media. We won two championships, the last time, just over 30 years ago, back in the early 70's. In the late 60's and pretty much through the 70's, people were tough enough to handle the pressure, but I think when you combine the demanding-criticle fans of today, the media who loves a good trash story and the types of well paid players who play today, combine that with all of the pressures of New York, it makes it almost impossible to build under normal circumstances. It's going to take a genius to get us out of this mess and into something winnable again. I don't know how much more I can explain it, but it's there and we got to go through it. LOL to us all!
I'll never trust this' team again.
Givin' It a Shot -- Rebuilding w/o Isiah

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