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Caseloads
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11/20/2002  9:52 AM
Moments later, Grillo cautioned members of the Knicks' staff to tell Thomas to stop glaring at him. The lapse in judgment represented Thomas' first technical of the season, an inexcusable offense in the fourth quarter of a close game. The Knicks ended up losing by one.
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OasisBU
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11/20/2002  9:55 AM
I will say it again...he may be a decent player - but I personally have never liked him and most likely never will.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
martin
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11/20/2002  12:01 PM
by all means Thomas' actions lead to a Knick loss. I mean really, what do you gain by glaring at the ref. Maybe if you are Jordon or Kobe you can get away with it and actually influence the ref's next call. But Thomas?

Did this guy forget last year? After an early season full of techs and bad fouls and stare downs, he settled down and had a good stretch run.
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quicksandnyc
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11/20/2002  1:07 PM
doesn't anyone find it amusing when refs complain that a player 'glared' at them. i mean you can't look at someone after they make what is in your opinion a bad call. he's not being t'ed up for saying a derogatory comment, but for looking at someone sternly. where does it end...
DefAndReb
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11/20/2002  4:02 PM
A glare is not a look, it is a long stare meant to intimidate. They're right to T him up. Refs are the authority of the game, and most of them are pretty reasonable, given how players whine to them about calls constantly. Sure, some refs hold grudges against players, but I've seen Thomas do it. It's clearly meant to be threatening, and it's unacceptable. He acts the fool at the worst possible moment, and he's been that way ever since we signed him up. I admire his gritty play, but not the stupidity. Oakley never carried on like that.
Posted by quicksandnyc:

doesn't anyone find it amusing when refs complain that a player 'glared' at them. i mean you can't look at someone after they make what is in your opinion a bad call. he's not being t'ed up for saying a derogatory comment, but for looking at someone sternly. where does it end...
quicksandnyc
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11/20/2002  6:01 PM
i stand by this - reputation dictates what the refs do or don't do.

kt is perceived as a bully therefore he is not afforded the same leniency that jordan of kobe gets. it's not a level playing field. martin makes reference to it in his comment. glaring at a ref, trying to intimidate them...how are they being intimidated? into not making a call or making a call, please, what is the player going to do about it. nothing, except stare. what risk is the ref at? there is nothing to be intimidated about. is the ref worried that kt might not be his friend after the game?

the refs are authority and impartial. they're impartiality is compromised by the two sets of rules in the nba. one for the jordans and kobes and one for everyone else. and isn't grillo the same ref that t'ed up rasheed wallace for staring.

stare glare look gave glance, it's all open to interpetation, just like the rules of the game.

ps. oakley complained alot and intimidation is a big part of his game. oakley thinks he has never committed a foul.
DefAndReb
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11/21/2002  9:06 AM
You're right about reputation. Jordan had a good reputation because A) he plays a great game B) he can argue properly and C) he never glares at refs

If someone stares at you like that, that's a threat to do bodily harm.

In high school, at least in my day, if a kid so much as speaks to a ref they're getting a T. I'm not expecting that same kind of thing among grown men, but the way KT and Rasheed stare at guys, that's street ****, and that's not acceptable. The refs defnitely favor some guys, but that's not at all the issue here. If you try to act like a thug to a ref, you're putting yourself on a list. All KT has to do is not do that, stay off that list. K-Mart's learning. How hard is that? If they continue to do it, they should get fined.

Every player gets angry once in awhile, says something in front of, or to the ref, and gets a T. Oakley was no different, but he never stared at the refs like he has going to hit them, and that's exactly what KT is doing. It doesn't matter if he's not really going to hit the guy, the message is clear.
Posted by quicksandnyc:

i stand by this - reputation dictates what the refs do or don't do.

kt is perceived as a bully therefore he is not afforded the same leniency that jordan of kobe gets. it's not a level playing field. martin makes reference to it in his comment. glaring at a ref, trying to intimidate them...how are they being intimidated? into not making a call or making a call, please, what is the player going to do about it. nothing, except stare. what risk is the ref at? there is nothing to be intimidated about. is the ref worried that kt might not be his friend after the game?

the refs are authority and impartial. they're impartiality is compromised by the two sets of rules in the nba. one for the jordans and kobes and one for everyone else. and isn't grillo the same ref that t'ed up rasheed wallace for staring.

stare glare look gave glance, it's all open to interpetation, just like the rules of the game.

ps. oakley complained alot and intimidation is a big part of his game. oakley thinks he has never committed a foul.
quicksandnyc
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11/21/2002  10:54 AM
is kurt thomas wrong for staring down a ref? yes, based on that blanket statement. poor sportsmanship from a professional athlete. he should be ejected and fined. i agree. is kurt thomas wrong based on the current state of the nba? not necessarily and that's because of the underlying issue that the refs can be manipulated. heat v knicks playoffs. riley says to the press that the refs are favoring the knicks...end result riley gets the calls down the stretch in the next game. much more savy way of doing it, but it produces the same result. compromising the call of the game. do i think kurt thomas gains anything by this, absolutely nothing but perpetuating his reputation. his stupidity really and do i think he could rush a ref to inflict bodily harm. sure. you ask a guy to be intense and in control. millions of dollars at stake in the mecca of sports. not eveyone can hold down that kind of pressure, just think about the people that you come in contact with on a daily basis that give you a hard look on the subway cause it's crowded and you scuffed their puma.

based on your definition, should players be allowed to stare down other players? that's threateneing, could lead to fighting.

i'd also like to know how you argue properly. in my estimation arguing properly would mean going to your coach, much like in baseball, and let the coach haggle with the ref. the ref can't undo the call. the player is trying to manipulate the ref, who is supposed to remain impartial, place doubt in his mind and thus make a favorable call in return. we see it all the time. questionable call/no call at one end. payback at the other. elite players have caused this climate over time.

i agree there should be no debating, pleading, arguing with the refs by players, but it's now part of the game. arguing, glaring, it's all meant to bring the same result, swing the refs in your direction. all of it is wrong. i'm just saying that based on the current situation reputation dictates all and that's unfair and compromises a game i care about.
quicksandnyc
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11/21/2002  10:58 AM
and oh yeah...when you are winning, these things always seem less important.


SPREE RIPS KURT FOR 'SILLY' FOULS
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/25745.htm
DefAndReb
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11/21/2002  1:15 PM
I agree there's a problem with favoritism and manipulation among refs. I'm just saying that a guy who acts like Kurt deserves a bad rep. Stuff like 'Can't breathe on Jordan' calls from the 90's are an example of the real problem.

To argue properly, given the existing climate of allowing players to talk to officials, means to question the call without taking it personally, just like in real business. No insults, no negative comments. Just argue the call ("but he elbowed me first"). That's what real argument is: debate. To argue a call by saying "that's bulls#$t, man" is not going to convince the ref to see things your way, so why do it in the first place? Like you said, better to let the coach do the arguing. But if you're going to do it, give the ref a good reason why you're right, and next time down the court, maybe he'll see things your way.

I'd also say that even when you're winning, like the Nets were last year, those problems are an issue, because one of your best players puts the team and the games in jeopardy, just like K-mart did. He's quickly worked to fix that. Kurt hasn't. He's wrong to equate the criticism with "changing his game". Throwing a fit about calls against him is not part of the "game", especially when he commits obvious, childish, unnecessary fouls. He's being unprofessional. He should learn how to argue without making it personal.
Posted by quicksandnyc:

and oh yeah...when you are winning, these things always seem less important.


SPREE RIPS KURT FOR 'SILLY' FOULS
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/25745.htm
sebstar
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11/23/2002  9:51 PM
This debate lost focus. Question, when is the last time you have ever seen a member of the team that is in the process of a uncontested breakaway dunk blatenly foul the other team for no discernable reason? Personally, I have never seen it, nor have I ever seen Jordan, Kobe or any other superstar do anything even remotely as stupid, so leave them out of it.

Krazy Eyes Thomas glared like he wanted to wipe out the ref's whole family starting that night. Which was just a symbol of his personal recognition that he just committed a throughly embarrassing play, and he was trying to put it on the ref. Arguing a close call with dignity and respect is one thing, but doing something that dumb and then trying to intimidate the ref is as bad as it gets.
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DefAndReb
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11/24/2002  2:13 PM
I'm trying to figure out how what you said is any different from what I've said twice.

My point is that KT is not the victim of unfair officiating, because his glaring is clearly unacceptable, not just on the court, but off it as well. Imagine if he did that to a police officer!
Posted by sebstar:

This debate lost focus. Question, when is the last time you have ever seen a member of the team that is in the process of a uncontested breakaway dunk blatenly foul the other team for no discernable reason? Personally, I have never seen it, nor have I ever seen Jordan, Kobe or any other superstar do anything even remotely as stupid, so leave them out of it.

Krazy Eyes Thomas glared like he wanted to wipe out the ref's whole family starting that night. Which was just a symbol of his personal recognition that he just committed a throughly embarrassing play, and he was trying to put it on the ref. Arguing a close call with dignity and respect is one thing, but doing something that dumb and then trying to intimidate the ref is as bad as it gets.
OasisBU
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11/25/2002  4:15 PM
KT is a glorified roll player.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Vmart
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11/26/2002  1:25 PM
Its time to dump his crazy azz for something for the future like a pick. I am sure there is a team out there that will give their late first rounder to the Knicks for him. I say it time they make adecision on him. I don't think he is as productive as his numbers indicate. He is at best a sixth man that has been given starter time.
Caseloads
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11/27/2002  10:27 AM
Posted by sebstar:

This debate lost focus. Question, when is the last time you have ever seen a member of the team that is in the process of a uncontested breakaway dunk blatenly foul the other team for no discernable reason? Personally, I have never seen it, nor have I ever seen Jordan, Kobe or any other superstar do anything even remotely as stupid, so leave them out of it.

Krazy Eyes Thomas glared like he wanted to wipe out the ref's whole family starting that night. Which was just a symbol of his personal recognition that he just committed a throughly embarrassing play, and he was trying to put it on the ref. Arguing a close call with dignity and respect is one thing, but doing something that dumb and then trying to intimidate the ref is as bad as it gets.
kermit washington when he hit rudy t...
dolanblows
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11/29/2002  1:29 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

KT is a glorified roll player.

TRUE....BUT HE'S ALL WE GOT UP FRONT
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