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The Myth that is the Knicks Youth
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islesfan
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9/28/2006  12:07 PM
All of these Kool-Aid drinkers keep harping on how young the Knicks are. But are they really that different from most other teams in the NBA?

The Knicks have 7 players on their roster 25 years old or younger. I'm going strictly by age and not necessarily talent because the people who keep bringing youth up always include Balkman and Collins when neither have proven that they can do anything in the NBA.

Here is a list of all the teams in the NBA and how many players 25 and younger in parentheses:

Atlanta (11)
Boston (12)
Charlotte (7)
Chicago (9)
Cleveland (10)
Dallas (7)
Denver (7)
Detroit (6)
Golden State (9)
Houston (9)
Indiana (9)
LA Clippers (8)
LA Lakers (9)
Memphis (6)
Miami (10)
Milwaukee (7)
Minnesota (8)
New Jersey (6)
New Orleans (6)
Orlando (7)
Philadelphia (11)
Phoenix (5)
Portland (9)
Sacramento (7)
San Antonio (7)
Seattle (9)
Toronto (9)
Utah (7)
Washington (10)

You can count all of the teams that have less youth than the Knicks on 1 hand. At the very minimum you can make a great case that the Knicks are somewhere in the middle of the pack when it comes to young players.

How come you don't hear other teams crow about how young they are like the Knicks and their Kool-Aid drinkers do?

Having young players isn't some act of a great GM as much as it is the natural progression of roster turnover and older players leaving and younger players (draft picks) taking their place.

And having "youth" doesn't necessarily mean that becoming a contender is the next logical step as some of you seem to think.
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BlueSeats
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9/28/2006  1:31 PM
it's a bit like when they talk about how we're in great shape to be under the cap in just 4 short years... IF we let 10 contacts expire, make no new trades and resign none of our draft picks....
SugarRayRichardson
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9/28/2006  1:37 PM
We can resign our picks and still be under the cap as long as we lets all the idiotic contracts go on their way. Our highest paid players would be curry and Jcraw at respectable 7-10 mill a year deals.
My problem is that should have been our goal for next year not for 3 years from now. francis never should have been traded for and Marbs should have been dumped for 16 million in 1 year of pocket lint.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
wsdm
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9/28/2006  1:46 PM
I agree the Knicks aren't doing true rebuilding like I want them to, but I also think counting the # of young players is pointless. It doesn't take into account how good the young players are. It also seems to suggest that the more young players you have, the more you're building for the future. A smart rebuilding plan would be to have plenty of role player veterans helping along your young players.
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BlueSeats
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9/28/2006  1:57 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

We can resign our picks and still be under the cap as long as we lets all the idiotic contracts go on their way. Our highest paid players would be curry and Jcraw at respectable 7-10 mill a year deals.
My problem is that should have been our goal for next year not for 3 years from now. francis never should have been traded for and Marbs should have been dumped for 16 million in 1 year of pocket lint.


My point is I'd be shocked if there's a team in the league that can't be under the cap in 4 years, especially if they institute unrealistic theoretical austerity measures.

We're not exactly at the head of the pack in that department.

And don't forget about the contracts of QR, James, Jeffries (and extensions to Frye, Lee and Nate). In fact, even if we only extend the qualifying offer to those guys we're still at over 50M in 09-10 for just 8 players.
holfresh
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9/28/2006  1:59 PM

I could be wrong but the youth arguement was made comparing what the Knicks had previous to Isiah being hired...I may be wrong but the 2003-04 Knicks had 2 players under the age of 25...Sweets and Frank Williams..I guess you can throw Lampe in there too...
CrushAlot
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9/29/2006  11:02 PM
The Knicks do have young players who are contributing and have added five first round picks in two years. The team has come along way from the Clarence Weatherspoon era.
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arkrud
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9/29/2006  11:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:

All of these Kool-Aid drinkers keep harping on how young the Knicks are. But are they really that different from most other teams in the NBA?

The Knicks have 7 players on their roster 25 years old or younger. I'm going strictly by age and not necessarily talent because the people who keep bringing youth up always include Balkman and Collins when neither have proven that they can do anything in the NBA.

Here is a list of all the teams in the NBA and how many players 25 and younger in parentheses:

Atlanta (11)
Boston (12)
Charlotte (7)
Chicago (9)
Cleveland (10)
Dallas (7)
Denver (7)
Detroit (6)
Golden State (9)
Houston (9)
Indiana (9)
LA Clippers (8)
LA Lakers (9)
Memphis (6)
Miami (10)
Milwaukee (7)
Minnesota (8)
New Jersey (6)
New Orleans (6)
Orlando (7)
Philadelphia (11)
Phoenix (5)
Portland (9)
Sacramento (7)
San Antonio (7)
Seattle (9)
Toronto (9)
Utah (7)
Washington (10)

You can count all of the teams that have less youth than the Knicks on 1 hand. At the very minimum you can make a great case that the Knicks are somewhere in the middle of the pack when it comes to young players.

How come you don't hear other teams crow about how young they are like the Knicks and their Kool-Aid drinkers do?

Having young players isn't some act of a great GM as much as it is the natural progression of roster turnover and older players leaving and younger players (draft picks) taking their place.

And having "youth" doesn't necessarily mean that becoming a contender is the next logical step as some of you seem to think.

Hmmm... Interesting
NBA is getting young.
No wonder it is too many attitude problems and malcontents.
Kids just need to grow up.
Talking about a team class - age is not a problem and not a solution. Just fact.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Ira
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9/30/2006  8:21 AM
Posted by islesfan:

All of these Kool-Aid drinkers keep harping on how young the Knicks are. But are they really that different from most other teams in the NBA?

The Knicks have 7 players on their roster 25 years old or younger. I'm going strictly by age and not necessarily talent because the people who keep bringing youth up always include Balkman and Collins when neither have proven that they can do anything in the NBA.

Here is a list of all the teams in the NBA and how many players 25 and younger in parentheses:

Atlanta (11)
Boston (12)
Charlotte (7)
Chicago (9)
Cleveland (10)
Dallas (7)
Denver (7)
Detroit (6)
Golden State (9)
Houston (9)
Indiana (9)
LA Clippers (8)
LA Lakers (9)
Memphis (6)
Miami (10)
Milwaukee (7)
Minnesota (8)
New Jersey (6)
New Orleans (6)
Orlando (7)
Philadelphia (11)
Phoenix (5)
Portland (9)
Sacramento (7)
San Antonio (7)
Seattle (9)
Toronto (9)
Utah (7)
Washington (10)

You can count all of the teams that have less youth than the Knicks on 1 hand. At the very minimum you can make a great case that the Knicks are somewhere in the middle of the pack when it comes to young players.

How come you don't hear other teams crow about how young they are like the Knicks and their Kool-Aid drinkers do?

Having young players isn't some act of a great GM as much as it is the natural progression of roster turnover and older players leaving and younger players (draft picks) taking their place.

And having "youth" doesn't necessarily mean that becoming a contender is the next logical step as some of you seem to think.

The total number is meaningless. The Knicks have Frye, Curry, Nate, Lee and Jeffries - all of whom will have nba careers. Many teams have 11th and 12th men in those numbers who are there just to fill the roster.
SugarRayRichardson
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9/30/2006  12:43 PM
The Knicks youth of under 26 players is probably in the top 20% of the leagues
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
martin
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9/30/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

The Knicks youth of under 26 players is probably in the top 20% of the leagues

probably? why probably? do the math and get back to us with something concrete instead of a finger wag.

We are probably winning the war in Iraq.
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crzymdups
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9/30/2006  1:01 PM
I'm with Ira, the number is meaningless. Does that fact that we just Mo Taylor and are signing Elton or Miller and giving us 8 guys under 25 mean anything? No. But according to Isles' study, we are now younger than 13 teams in the league. What about the fact that QRich and Jamal both just celebrated their 26th birthday this year? What if we re-sign Qyntel Woods?

The number doesn't mean much - we have at least five guys under 25 who can definitely start in the NBA - Curry, Frye, Jefferies, Lee and Nate. They have proven they can play at a high level, higher than most young kids. They will probably be 5 of the top 10 guys in our rotation this year, with 26yr old QRich and Jamal making a young, fast rotation. Balkman has a very good chance of cracking the rotation as well.

The fact that these guys are young doesn't mean anything if they don't play well - but I like all of our young players. This isn't the days of us having Lampe and hoping Vuja comes over and telling ourselves Frank Williams was going to be the answer. These are real players who have already played real minutes and played well.
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nixluva
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9/30/2006  1:09 PM
This is just more evidence of the self hate that is so rampant among knicks fans. Almost every forum I read has a bunch of guys who do nothing but bash the team at every chance they can get. Bringing up obscure meaningless points. This thread lacks any use of reason and merely looks at numbers as if that tells you anything about the actual players themselves. Like someone else brought up, its not just that we have a lot of young players, but that in comparison to just 2.5 seasons ago, we had the oldest team in the league and now we don't. We've loaded up with talented young players who will be the core of this team and have shown they can play on this level.
SugarRayRichardson
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9/30/2006  1:13 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

The Knicks youth of under 26 players is probably in the top 20% of the leagues

probably? why probably? do the math and get back to us with something concrete instead of a finger wag.

We are probably winning the war in Iraq.

We are definitely winning the war in Iraq. 3000 American casualties, none on American soil vs 100's of thousands of Iraqi/terrorist fighters lives. Their dictator is in a jail cell. If this war was a boxing match it would be called in the first round. The only confusion is because we dont even use our strength. We fight the war with our arms tied behind our back. If we were ever in danger of losing it we could turn all of Iraq in to a dirt road in 2 weeks time of non stop indiscriminate bombing. But instead we risk our own lives trying to do things the right way/politically correct way so that fewer innocent Iraqis are killed.


I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
crzymdups
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9/30/2006  1:16 PM
Cuban actually had an interesting post on this a while back. He weights the playing time of lineups and determines average age from the guys who actually play. Now, this is a bit skewed for us because Brown was doing his tricks and playing Antonio Davis and we didn't have Jefferies at that point, but still, it's interesting.

According to Cuban from the beginning of the season last year to December 30th 2005, we were playing the tenth youngest group in the NBA. Obviously the way Cuban did this is not an exact science, but I think it's more telling than just looking at the total 15 man roster and saying a team is young or old.

http://www.blogmaverick.com/2005/12/30/the-youngest-and-oldest-teams-in-the-nba/

[Edited by - crzymdups on 30-09-2006 1:17 PM]
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SugarRayRichardson
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9/30/2006  1:17 PM
Very few have more young talent in my eyes. This is how I listed it in my opinion.

Atlanta (11) (even talent)
Boston (12) Knicks
Charlotte (7) Even
Chicago (9) Knicks
Cleveland (10) Cavs because of Lebron alone
Dallas (7) Knicks
Denver (7) Knicks
Detroit (6) Knicks
Golden State (9) Knicks
Houston (9) Knicks
Indiana (9) Knicks
LA Clippers (8) Knicks
LA Lakers (9) Knicks
Memphis (6) Knicks
Miami (10) Knicks
Milwaukee (7) Knicks but close
Minnesota (8) Knicks
New Jersey (6) Knicks
New Orleans (6) Knicks
Orlando (7) Magic because of Howard
Philadelphia (11) Knicks
Phoenix (5) Knicks if amare is injured
Portland (9) Even
Sacramento (7) Knicks
San Antonio (7) Knicks
Seattle (9) Knicks
Toronto (9) Knicks
Utah (7) Knicks
Washington (10) Knicks
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
islesfan
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9/30/2006  1:29 PM
Hey geniuses, specifically IRA, crzydmups and nixluva, perhaps you should reread my initial post.
I'm going strictly by age and not necessarily talent because the people who keep bringing youth up always include Balkman and Collins when neither have proven that they can do anything in the NBA.

I'm not the one that always includes Knicks based on age and not talent the way most of you do, especially nixluva, when they talk about how "young" and promising the Knicks are.

If Paul Miller becomes a Knick there's no doubt that he'll automatically be included as to the youth and promise that is the NY Knicks. No matter how much of a fringe player he is.

Don't cry when people use your own criteria against you.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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9/30/2006  1:37 PM
Posted by nixluva:

This is just more evidence of the self hate that is so rampant among knicks fans. Almost every forum I read has a bunch of guys who do nothing but bash the team at every chance they can get. Bringing up obscure meaningless points. This thread lacks any use of reason and merely looks at numbers as if that tells you anything about the actual players themselves. Like someone else brought up, its not just that we have a lot of young players, but that in comparison to just 2.5 seasons ago, we had the oldest team in the league and now we don't. We've loaded up with talented young players who will be the core of this team and have shown they can play on this level.

Nix, I like your enthusiasm, I really do. You probably hate my negativity, but thats the way I view this team the last 8 years, except 99. I hate watching my favorite basketball team have guys like Marbury, Francis and Curry on the team with their horrible attitudes and I hate watching our GM keep bringing in players of that same ilk. I know your going to disagree lol.

The problem with you is that you say that Isiah brought young talent in so he's doing a good job. How do teams get young talent? By being bad. And just becuase Isiah brought in young players, that doesnt necessarily mean their good and thats the way you paint your picture.
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crzymdups
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9/30/2006  1:45 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Hey geniuses, specifically IRA, crzydmups and nixluva, perhaps you should reread my initial post.
I'm going strictly by age and not necessarily talent because the people who keep bringing youth up always include Balkman and Collins when neither have proven that they can do anything in the NBA.

I'm not the one that always includes Knicks based on age and not talent the way most of you do, especially nixluva, when they talk about how "young" and promising the Knicks are.

If Paul Miller becomes a Knick there's no doubt that he'll automatically be included as to the youth and promise that is the NY Knicks. No matter how much of a fringe player he is.

Don't cry when people use your own criteria against you.

well, if you don't talk about the talent of the players involved it doesn't really make sense. yes, everyone has a lot of youth. Boston is full of young players, but I'd rather our 7 than their 11. You just hammered away at Frye, saying he's at best the 15th or 20th best power forward in the league. Well that's after his rookie season in which he got inconsistent minutes from his coach and he missed the last 20 games with injury. Boston is still pinning their hopes on Al Jefferson, who has never had a stretch like Frye but they still hope will be an all-star. Sure, all bad teams look to their youth and hope for the best.

I do think you'd have to make a pretty thin argument that our crop of youth isn't one of the better ones in the league. One of whom finished in the top five in ROY voting despite missing the final two months and also won a rookie of the month honor and finished second on our team in scoring per minute, one of whom led the league in FG% and represents one of only true post-up centers in the league and led our team in scoring per minute, one of whom is a 6'11" long, rangy defender who can defend at least three positions well, one of whom was our best per minute rebounder and led our team in FG% at almost 60%, and one of whom shot .397 on 3pfg% and won the slam dunk contest.

I guess everyone's opinion can differ until they take the court though.
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martin
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9/30/2006  1:47 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Very few have more young talent in my eyes. This is how I listed it in my opinion.

Atlanta (11) (even talent)
Boston (12) Knicks
Charlotte (7) Even
Chicago (9) Knicks
Cleveland (10) Cavs because of Lebron alone
Dallas (7) Knicks
Denver (7) Knicks
Detroit (6) Knicks
Golden State (9) Knicks
Houston (9) Knicks
Indiana (9) Knicks
LA Clippers (8) Knicks
LA Lakers (9) Knicks
Memphis (6) Knicks
Miami (10) Knicks
Milwaukee (7) Knicks but close
Minnesota (8) Knicks
New Jersey (6) Knicks
New Orleans (6) Knicks
Orlando (7) Magic because of Howard
Philadelphia (11) Knicks
Phoenix (5) Knicks if amare is injured
Portland (9) Even
Sacramento (7) Knicks
San Antonio (7) Knicks
Seattle (9) Knicks
Toronto (9) Knicks
Utah (7) Knicks
Washington (10) Knicks

only 3 teams is even? Seems a bit skewed.

Atlanta (11) (even talent)
Boston (12) Knicks (West, Telfair, Jefferson, Green Allen, Gomes, Perkins)
Charlotte (7) Even (Felton, GWallace, May, Morrison, Okafor) Even?
Chicago (9) Knicks (Deng, Hinrich, TyThomas, Duhon, Gordon, Thabo Sefolosha) Knicks?
Cleveland (10) Cavs because of Lebron alone
Dallas (7) Knicks
Denver (7) Knicks (Melo? Nene, JR Smith)
Detroit (6) Knicks
Golden State (9) Knicks
Houston (9) Knicks
Indiana (9) Knicks
LA Clippers (8) Knicks
LA Lakers (9) Knicks
Memphis (6) Knicks
Miami (10) Knicks (Wade?)
Milwaukee (7) Knicks but close (Bogus, Villanueva, Mo Williams)
Minnesota (8) Knicks
New Jersey (6) Knicks
New Orleans (6) Knicks (Armstrong, Bass, Chandler, CHRIS PAUL, Simmons)
Orlando (7) Magic because of Howard
Philadelphia (11) Knicks
Phoenix (5) Knicks if amare is injured
Portland (9) Even (Aldridge, Jack, Outlaw, Rodriguez, Roy, Webster)
Sacramento (7) Knicks
San Antonio (7) Knicks
Seattle (9) Knicks
Toronto (9) Knicks
Utah (7) Knicks
Washington (10) Knicks

I just getting too tired to finish.
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