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Putting Marbury's effect in a %
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newyorknewyork
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9/15/2006  5:44 PM
What % would you give Marbury's effect on the teams lack of success since he was traded to the Knicks.

With of course 0% meaning no effect on the teams lack of success since he has been here. And 100% meaning 100% effect on the teams lack of success since he has bee here.

Effect - everything from on the court, off the court, locker room, skills, salary etc..

In summary, what % would you give Marbury and only Marbury as the reason to us losng since he has been on the Knicks.

No explanation needed. Just a %.
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wsdm
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9/15/2006  6:44 PM
It's hard to give a #. I'll put it like this: Had you replaced Marbury with some average PG maybe like Charlie Ward in his prime, the team's win total would have still been in the 20s IMO. However, if Marbury had been playing to his potential, had the right attitude, and played with 100% effort, I think the team could have finished in the low 30s.
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BasketballJones
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9/15/2006  8:30 PM
67.8%
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arkrud
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9/15/2006  8:41 PM
If he was out we will have somebody or group of players with same contrct money.
So it will be 100% better
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BasketballJones
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9/15/2006  8:42 PM
I take it back - I think the number is more like 38.6%.
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Nalod
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9/15/2006  8:46 PM
TMS
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9/15/2006  9:43 PM
it's hard to put a set % on any negative effect he's had... who knows what happens in practice & behind closed doors that none of us are privy to? the conflicts he's had w/KT, Q Rich & LB certainly couldn't have helped team chemistry any... but who's to really say how much he was at fault in those instances? what i can say is the stupidity he's displayed w/his ridiculous comments to the media, the circus he played a huge role in during last season's debacle, & the expectations he came to NY with, certainly would put him as a major factor in the steady downfall of this franchise ever since he got here in my eyes.

but if u want an arbitrary #, i'll say he's at least 25% at fault... the rest being attributed to bad personnel decisions by Isiah (~40%), injuries to key players (~20%) & the inability of the coaches to get through to these players (~15%)
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BasketballJones
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9/15/2006  9:47 PM
Let X = Marbury effect
Let Y = Larry Brown effect
Let A = Isiah Thomas effect
Let B = Jim Dolan effect


X+Y+A+B=Fcukdup
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nixluva
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9/16/2006  12:26 AM
I don't really think Steph had as much of a negative effect as it might seem. I think a big factor is the amount of change in such a short time. The injury to H2O, having to play with Shandon instead, Van Horn & Doleac, Nazr, TT and KT or the guys we have now. We really need some stability and I think we can start to have that now. I'm not sorry that we had that whirlwind off change in the last couple of years. I think in the end it was for the best, cuz this is the best combination of players we've had since he's been here and it hasn't taken long for this roster to be remade.

Steph's positive effect has been mitigated by all the change and last year was the ultimate in terms of keeping Steph from being able to help the team. Steph CAN have a HUGE effect but its still gonna require that eveyone is on the same page. I think we caught a glimpse of what that looks like and i'm anxious to see that happen for a sustained period of time. I don't think his teammates hate him here. They clearly had no problem playing with him when things were going good. They seemed to enjoy it a LOT. Since that's the way Steph likes to play, I believe he can easily sustain that kind of level for long stretches over the course of the season. The team will really take off when others can help take up the slack when he's not at that level. I was happy about Jamal showing some guts and maybe Francis can be that other guy we can lean on to take over when we need it.

We'll finally have a more set lineup and clear roles. Its gonna help a lot and this will show what this team is really capable of. Much more so than last year, with all that instability and turmoil. No matter how much Steph contributed to that, I expect that he'll be on his best behavior this year.
BasketballJones
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9/16/2006  1:06 AM
Posted by nixluva:

I don't really think Steph had as much of a negative effect as it might seem. I think a big factor is the amount of change in such a short time. The injury to H2O, having to play with Shandon instead, Van Horn & Doleac, Nazr, TT and KT or the guys we have now. We really need some stability and I think we can start to have that now. I'm not sorry that we had that whirlwind off change in the last couple of years. I think in the end it was for the best, cuz this is the best combination of players we've had since he's been here and it hasn't taken long for this roster to be remade.

Steph's positive effect has been mitigated by all the change and last year was the ultimate in terms of keeping Steph from being able to help the team. Steph CAN have a HUGE effect but its still gonna require that eveyone is on the same page. I think we caught a glimpse of what that looks like and i'm anxious to see that happen for a sustained period of time. I don't think his teammates hate him here. They clearly had no problem playing with him when things were going good. They seemed to enjoy it a LOT. Since that's the way Steph likes to play, I believe he can easily sustain that kind of level for long stretches over the course of the season. The team will really take off when others can help take up the slack when he's not at that level. I was happy about Jamal showing some guts and maybe Francis can be that other guy we can lean on to take over when we need it.

We'll finally have a more set lineup and clear roles. Its gonna help a lot and this will show what this team is really capable of. Much more so than last year, with all that instability and turmoil. No matter how much Steph contributed to that, I expect that he'll be on his best behavior this year.

One thing I agree with is that all the change is part of why this team has performed as it has. I'd like to see some stability. Obviously we had to get rid of the firm of Eisley, Anderson & Weatherspoon, but we really lost the connection with the past - the positive aspects of the past (like good defense and mental toughness.)

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rvhoss
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9/16/2006  10:50 AM
yes, I agree, the change was necessary. I was a little bumbed out about QRIch as I thought he was going to atleast give us what he gave us the previous year.

His defense completely suprised me, and if he comes back with that same defense and some some ability to hit the open look, I'm ecstatic.

I know we have beat the 2.5 year thing into the ground as much as people have beat the marbury "effect" into the ground, but had we had the same team the entire 2.5 years, then I'd say you had something, but the changes are way too obvious to ignore, the number of coaches, the number of players and the number of salaries.

This last offseason is the first with little or no movement.

We picked up role players that shouldn't expect to play a significant amount of time, last year's rookies have a year under their belt with marbury AND know what parts of their games they are deficient in (thanks to LB, which btw, one year of LB is something that will help this team immensely!).

I don't really defend marbury all that much as he's not even my favorite knick, but I do realize a scapegoat when I see one.

If after this year, we are still the crappy team that we appear to be in the press, I will be the first to say I agree.

But those guys that walk around with signs saying the end of the world is near, they aren't right until it's the end of the world.

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gunsnewing
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9/16/2006  2:30 PM
101.8%
VDesai
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9/16/2006  2:49 PM
0%

With the same management, philosophy, style etc, we'd have the same lack of success with a different player (or cast of players).
Solace
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9/16/2006  5:34 PM
Posted by VDesai:

0%



30% -- Players have been traded, and coaches have been fired because Marbury couldn't get along with them. Enough said.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
wsdm
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9/16/2006  9:24 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by VDesai:

0%



30% -- Players have been traded, and coaches have been fired because Marbury couldn't get along with them. Enough said.
Sorry you're in the "over 100%" club? How many more games do you think the team would have won if it had an average guy like Charlie Ward (in his prime) at PG?



[Edited by - wsdm on 09-16-2006 9:25 PM]
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Solace
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9/16/2006  10:17 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by VDesai:

0%



30% -- Players have been traded, and coaches have been fired because Marbury couldn't get along with them. Enough said.
Sorry you're in the "over 100%" club? How many more games do you think the team would have won if it had an average guy like Charlie Ward (in his prime) at PG?



[Edited by - wsdm on 09-16-2006 9:25 PM]

How is that over 100%? I feel he has some responsibility in us being bad losers the last few years. Unless I misunderstood the question, I stand behind the percentage I put.

If we didn't have Marbury, I believe we'd still have guys like Michael Doleac and Keith Van Horn playing at a high level and would be a .500 team. Nothing to brag about but well better than 23 wins.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
wsdm
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9/16/2006  10:54 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by VDesai:

0%



30% -- Players have been traded, and coaches have been fired because Marbury couldn't get along with them. Enough said.
Sorry you're in the "over 100%" club? How many more games do you think the team would have won if it had an average guy like Charlie Ward (in his prime) at PG?



[Edited by - wsdm on 09-16-2006 9:25 PM]

How is that over 100%? I feel he has some responsibility in us being bad losers the last few years. Unless I misunderstood the question, I stand behind the percentage I put.

If we didn't have Marbury, I believe we'd still have guys like Michael Doleac and Keith Van Horn playing at a high level and would be a .500 team. Nothing to brag about but well better than 23 wins.

Oh, I meant to say "So, you're in the 100% club?" not "Sorry, you're..." I blame Marbury for not playing his best but don't think the club would be better with some ordinary PG or with the guys you listed who were ineffective last year.
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wsdm
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9/16/2006  11:11 PM
I'm not sure why you listed Doleac. I never heard of Marbury being the reason he was included in the trade. I think Isiah just (understandably) viewed Nazr as an upgrade over Doleac.
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Solace
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9/17/2006  1:48 PM
Posted by wsdm:

I'm not sure why you listed Doleac. I never heard of Marbury being the reason he was included in the trade. I think Isiah just (understandably) viewed Nazr as an upgrade over Doleac.

Just simply because he was traded as part of the trade. Both Van Horn and Doleac played hard and well for us. I liked Nazr too, but hated TT. Bottom line is I think Marbury was a big factor; we actually tried to build a team around Marbury (if you can call Isiah's methods building a team) and so far it's been a mess. Hopefully it'll get better.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BlueSeats
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9/17/2006  2:45 PM
What difference does it make what the exact percentage is? The fact that we have to ask what is his role is disturbing enough. It puts him in the categories of the JR Riders, latter day Baron Davis/Steve Francises, Patterson/Miles/Randolf, and Vince Carter/T-Mac when they confess to routinely not giving full effort.

We pay this guy ~20M/yr and make him the face and cornerstone of the franchise and have to wonder if he's a net positive, how much he wants to be here, if he can coexist with his teammates and coaches? We have to wonder just what percentage of two disastrous seasons - both of which show he hallmarks of his former team's emotional collapses - belong to him alone?

And in the same breath some guys tell us having him is some sort of a privilege?

Enough of the Marbury sideshow. I'd rather we trade him for a bearded lady and bear on a tricycle.
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