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Why don't we S&T Jackie B to the Spurs?
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Caseloads
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7/18/2006  10:11 AM
Can we do this and pick up a future second rounder or something?
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Andrew
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7/18/2006  10:12 AM
Do the Spurs want to do one with us?
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TMS
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7/18/2006  10:25 AM
Posted by Andrew:

Do the Spurs want to do one with us?

Don't pester us with these technicalities!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rvhoss
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7/18/2006  10:27 AM
if malik rose wasn't making the same salary as ginobli, I would think we could give them rose back.
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joec32033
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7/18/2006  10:32 AM
I would try to pop Butler to them for something like Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder.
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Pharzeone
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7/18/2006  2:06 PM
Posted by joec32033:

I would try to pop Butler to them for something like Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder.

S&T doesn't make sense. The Knicks would be responsible for the luxury tax portion which double his salary. So the Knicks would have to pay $7 million to JB, $7 million to League. The Knicks would essentially be paying $14 million ($7 million of the $14 million over the course of 3 years)for Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder. And people were mad about all the moves to draft Balkman?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
joec32033
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7/18/2006  2:12 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:

I would try to pop Butler to them for something like Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder.

S&T doesn't make sense. The Knicks would be responsible for the luxury tax portion which double his salary. So the Knicks would have to pay $7 million to JB, $7 million to League. The Knicks would essentially be paying $14 million ($7 million of the $14 million over the course of 3 years)for Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder. And people were mad about all the moves to draft Balkman?

I doubt that but I am not sure. It is probably a prorated portion of the contract we have to pay. I'll have to do the research if in a S&T a team that is capped out has to pay the tax when they don't have any intention of keeping him.
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joec32033
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7/18/2006  2:22 PM
Found it:

76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because if they want to give him a new contract using Bird rights then they have to waive him first, which resets the Bird clock.

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.


77. Can a team sign a player using the sign-and-trade rule and then say, "Ha ha, we fooled you. We're not trading you!"?

No. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind. The sign-and-trade clause makes the contract invalid if a trade to the specified team does not take place within 48 hours.


78. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?

Teams benefit because it allows them to get something in return for players they would otherwise lose to free agency. Players benefit because they can get a richer contract, and/or play for a team that is over the salary cap and otherwise wouldn't be able to afford them. Unlike the new team, the player's original team can use the various Bird exceptions (as long as the player qualifies) to sign the player without regard to the cap. Also, if the player's original team has full Bird rights, they can offer the player larger raises (10.5%, as opposed to 8%) and more seasons (six, as opposed to five -- see question number 46 for more information).

So sign-and-trade is a useful tool for teams that are capped-out and unable to offer players large contracts.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#67
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TMS
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7/18/2006  2:31 PM
"Ha ha, we fooled you. We're not trading you!"?

lol.
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Pharzeone
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7/18/2006  2:55 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:

I would try to pop Butler to them for something like Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder.

S&T doesn't make sense. The Knicks would be responsible for the luxury tax portion which double his salary. So the Knicks would have to pay $7 million to JB, $7 million to League. The Knicks would essentially be paying $14 million ($7 million of the $14 million over the course of 3 years)for Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder. And people were mad about all the moves to draft Balkman?

I doubt that but I am not sure. It is probably a prorated portion of the contract we have to pay. I'll have to do the research if in a S&T a team that is capped out has to pay the tax when they don't have any intention of keeping him.

Joe, if the Knicks resign Butler, he will count against the luxury tax no matter what since the Knicks are over. So what ever his salary is, the Knicks will be have to pay the matching dollar amount under the CBA. If a player is traded while a team is over the cap, the team that trades the player is still responsible for the luxury tax portion due to the NBA. You cannot trade luxury tax. That's is why Dolan doesn't want to really trade Francis. The CBA is not kind to teams trying to get out from under the luxury tax since it is suppose to be a form of punishment.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
joec32033
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7/18/2006  2:58 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:

I would try to pop Butler to them for something like Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder.

S&T doesn't make sense. The Knicks would be responsible for the luxury tax portion which double his salary. So the Knicks would have to pay $7 million to JB, $7 million to League. The Knicks would essentially be paying $14 million ($7 million of the $14 million over the course of 3 years)for Eric Williams and a 2nd rounder. And people were mad about all the moves to draft Balkman?

I doubt that but I am not sure. It is probably a prorated portion of the contract we have to pay. I'll have to do the research if in a S&T a team that is capped out has to pay the tax when they don't have any intention of keeping him.

Joe, if the Knicks resign Butler, he will count against the luxury tax no matter what since the Knicks are over. So what ever his salary is, the Knicks will be have to pay the matching dollar amount under the CBA. If a player is traded while a team is over the cap, the team that trades the player is still responsible for the luxury tax portion due to the NBA. You cannot trade luxury tax. That's is why Dolan doesn't want to really trade Francis. The CBA is not kind to teams trying to get out from under the luxury tax since it is suppose to be a form of punishment.

Did you read this part?

No. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind. The sign-and-trade clause makes the contract invalid if a trade to the specified team does not take place within 48 hours.

If it is treated in this way, as a "single atomic transaction", the signed player is not ever considered part of the team that signed him, only the a member of the team he is being traded to. Which means that the Knicks would in no way be responsible for any salary over the limit. If they signed him and then 2 weeks later traded him, you would be correct, but in a sign and trade type of deal, he is never really considered Knicks property.
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rvhoss
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7/19/2006  4:49 PM
we'd be responsible for the luxary tax on the incoming salaries, no?
all kool aid all the time.
Why don't we S&T Jackie B to the Spurs?

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