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cap space and lottery picks wins again...
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fishmike
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6/21/2006  7:15 AM
Butler (lottery pick)
Odom (cap space)
traded for Shaq +
Wade (top 5 lottery pick) =
NBA title

shocker... another team does what every other team has done. Use roster flexibility and high draft picks to build a champ.

Eventually this philosophy will change when people see ISiah's plan come to fruition
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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McK1
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6/21/2006  8:47 AM
Isiah is too futuristic for you noobs
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Nalod
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6/21/2006  9:11 AM
Also that team had quality leadership. Payton backed up Shaq and allowed Dwade to be who he is: The Man. They had role players in Hasslam and off the bench. Shandon, Doleac, Zo, and Payton/JWilliams all. The leadership kept walker in line and in the program. Riles motivated the guys just right. No gazy men on that team.

And.......

Riles was there only half the season. Shaq wanted him. NOt that SVG was a bad coach, but the older guys wanted the shtick that Riles does best.

Antoine walker is a champ. Shandon is a champ. Doleac is a champ. Payton is a champ. Zoe is a champ. Marbury is still a chump.
djsunyc
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6/21/2006  9:28 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Eventually this philosophy will change when people see ISiah's plan come to fruition

that's what i've been trying ot say for the longest. 2012 is right around the corner...
Nalod
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6/21/2006  9:39 AM
We need out annual starphuch rumor.

When is Lebron available?

When is Wade wanting to come to broadway?

Who is Isiah's favorite Chicago guy?

Who wants to play at home?

ANd the Sign and trades! Isn't that the real reason for those wonderful contracts? They never expire, they just get perpetuated!

We got Jermain O'Neal rumors? Him and Isiah have love!
And its high time we get the Lamar Oh-Dumb back to NY rumors. ANd lets not forget Andy Bynum as a throw in!

Lets not forget the Magic Johnson rumors also!

Lets instead talk ourselves into believeing still that Eddy is gonna be great. The draft always gets hype right before it happens! ANd Isiah is the master drafter, so he will bring in great players anyway. Then Coach them. They told us Isiah would never coach this team. I can understand things happen, but if this happens, its once again management loses it cred with the spoken or written word.

Congrats to brown haired Riles and the freaky looking Mickey Aronson!

Cuban got put in his place this past week. The old guard is making him pay.

Just think, one day if the knicks win they gonna hand the trophy to Dolan! Yuck!
BasketballJones
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6/21/2006  9:45 AM
Also, don't feel bad that the Knicks didn't win a championship. The winner of a championship is not necessarily the better team. There are many, many asterisk series such as the one we just witnessed, last year's Spurs win and, most notoriously, the Pistons totally unwarranted win two years ago. In each of these series, the teams only won the series because they played better than the other team, and won more games.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:47]
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islesfan
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6/21/2006  9:46 AM
High Lottery picks are overrated. Picking at the end of the 1st round is where it's at. Just ask Isiah...when he comes out of hiding.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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6/21/2006  9:59 AM
funny thing about the Heat, the only reason they were able to sign Odom was Anthony Carter was a day late trying to pick up his $5million option year. I guess that was all part of the Heat's plan though.
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nyk4ever
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6/21/2006  10:03 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

funny thing about the Heat, the only reason they were able to sign Odom was Anthony Carter was a day late trying to pick up his $5million option year. I guess that was all part of the Heat's plan though.

This isn't a thread about if's and's or but's. You might want to lean on IF Anthony Carter picked up his option, but that's not what happened is it.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
martin
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6/21/2006  10:13 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Also, don't feel bad that the Knicks didn't win a championship. The winner of a championship is not necessarily the better team. There are many, many asterisk series such as the one we just witnessed, last year's Spurs win and, most notoriously, the Pistons totally unwarranted win two years ago. In each of these series, the teams only won the series because they played better than the other team, and won more games.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 06-21-2006 09:47]

excellent analysis. We should award the trophy to the team before the finals series based on who is on the roster and how they could potentially play.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  10:13 AM
It's funny, I got to work and I was thinking about making a thread with the title - your 2006 NBA Champions - The Starphuching Miami Heat.

Let's be honest, this team went out and traded for Shaq on the down side of his career, traded for Toine Walker on the downside, gave money to a broken Gary Payton, a limited Alonzo Mourning, got Posey on the downside, got Jason Williams on the downside - all of these guys are overpaid and past their prime.

Haslem and Wade are young. Only Wade was acquired with a high draft pick. They traded all their other young players for Shaq and are paying him $100 million for the next five years. This is the kind of stuff you guys say is idiotic starphuching, and yet because it works for the Heat, suddenly they aren't "Starphuching," it's a brilliant strategy?

Hey, I'm not saying Riley didn't build a good, defensive minded team with two great offensive weapons - but let's be real: they built the team the Knicks have been TRYING to build for years. Old, overpaid stars past their prime. It was just smartly constructed and had a group of players that complemented one another and featured a young mid-lotto pick who took the leap to greatness (with a little nudge from the refs).

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

when are the Heat going to be under the cap? they have big contracts on the books to marginal/old players like Jason Williams that are close to untradeable.

I'm just saying there is no one philosophy that works as far as building a team goes, it is HOW the team is constructed. The Mavs "starphuched" for a while too - they never had cap room and haven't had a high pick since Nowitzki, they made complicated trades - trading Toine Walker for Terry, Jamison for Stackhouse and Harris, made a steal with Josh Howard at 29th in the draft, etc.

Did the Pistons have cap room or high draft picks? The Spurs have only used cap room to sign Rasho Nestorovic over their three championship runs.

There is no ONE way to build a team. It's about building a group of complimentary players and a coach who can maximize their potential.

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TMS
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6/21/2006  10:26 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Butler (lottery pick)
Odom (cap space)
traded for Shaq +
Wade (top 5 lottery pick) =
NBA title

shocker... another team does what every other team has done. Use roster flexibility and high draft picks to build a champ.

Eventually this philosophy will change when people see ISiah's plan come to fruition


let's be fair fish... Riley made a mess of that situation in MIA, & it was only because his team stunk so bad that they got that #5 pick to take D Wade to build their team around were they able to get to this point... to Riley's credit, at least he wasn't stupid enough to trade away that pick... the Knicks could have EASILY found themselves in that same situation this offseason if not for the non-lottery protection on their pick (albeit in a much less talented pool of picks)
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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6/21/2006  11:42 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

funny thing about the Heat, the only reason they were able to sign Odom was Anthony Carter was a day late trying to pick up his $5million option year. I guess that was all part of the Heat's plan though.
I new someone would mention that, and its irrelevant. The point is very simple. Miami knew their era was over. Zo was done and Hardaway done. Rather than pay Voshon Leonard max money they accepted reality and moved on. They used the draft. They didnt take on any BS contracts. They didnt offer the full MLE to fringe crap role players and look whats happened.

They didnt add the Jay William's, Walkers, Paytons, etc until they had Shaq and Wade in place.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/21/2006  11:52 AM
There is no ONE way to build a team. It's about building a group of complimentary players and a coach who can maximize their potential.
actually your wrong except for one team. Larry's Pistons. Aside from that there is ONE way to build a CHAMPIONSHIP team. Its DRAFT a superstar player and build him. If you take the Detriot team out of the equation only the Lakers and Shaq (who used cap space) have been different, and draft day trade aside Jerry West picked Kobe Bryant.
Isiah/Dumars x2
Jordan/Pippen x6
Shaq/Kobe x3
Duncan x3 (if you want to add Robinson go ahead)
Hakeem x2
Wade x1

17 of the last 18 titles won by a team that drafted their best player. I do smell a trend. Do we have a star player worth building around? Do we have the cap space in the future to lure one? Do we have the draft potential this year or next to draft one?

The thing that elevates good players into a great team is usually defense. There's a reason the Knicks gave $50mm to Larry Brown. Everyone knows we can score. Isiah figured if he could get these guys to actually guard we would win a lot of games, so on paper the LB signing makes complete and total sense. Its what happened next that was ugly. Regardless LB is still the only guy suited for this job. If he wants some grinders then go get some. There is such a thing as making trades that fit both the future needs of the franchise and fits the style of play the coach wants as well.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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6/21/2006  11:54 AM
this has been the same formula for many nba champs tier 1 nba all teamer flanked by secondary all star with solid veteran role players
RIP Crushalot😞
BigSm00th
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6/21/2006  11:58 AM
who cares if riley/heat planned on anthony carter screwing up his contract situation.

the fact remains they used cap space to get a talented player (odom), used the draft to select young, talented players (wade and butler), and then through smart trades (the odom/butler for shaq and the huge one that brought them antoine, pose, and jwill) and a lot of luck, they won a title.
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Nalod
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6/21/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

Butler (lottery pick)
Odom (cap space)
traded for Shaq +
Wade (top 5 lottery pick) =
NBA title

shocker... another team does what every other team has done. Use roster flexibility and high draft picks to build a champ.

Eventually this philosophy will change when people see ISiah's plan come to fruition


let's be fair fish... Riley made a mess of that situation in MIA, & it was only because his team stunk so bad that they got that #5 pick to take D Wade to build their team around were they able to get to this point... to Riley's credit, at least he wasn't stupid enough to trade away that pick... the Knicks could have EASILY found themselves in that same situation this offseason if not for the non-lottery protection on their pick (albeit in a much less talented pool of picks)

If we waited and were patient, we likely would have the no. 2 pick and then have the ability to make an even stronger trade if that is what we wanted!

The Dolanite way is NOW! No patience, just starphuch it!

crzymdups
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6/21/2006  12:47 PM
Posted by fishmike:
There is no ONE way to build a team. It's about building a group of complimentary players and a coach who can maximize their potential.
actually your wrong except for one team. Larry's Pistons. Aside from that there is ONE way to build a CHAMPIONSHIP team. Its DRAFT a superstar player and build him. If you take the Detriot team out of the equation only the Lakers and Shaq (who used cap space) have been different, and draft day trade aside Jerry West picked Kobe Bryant.
Isiah/Dumars x2
Jordan/Pippen x6
Shaq/Kobe x3
Duncan x3 (if you want to add Robinson go ahead)
Hakeem x2
Wade x1

17 of the last 18 titles won by a team that drafted their best player. I do smell a trend. Do we have a star player worth building around? Do we have the cap space in the future to lure one? Do we have the draft potential this year or next to draft one?

The thing that elevates good players into a great team is usually defense. There's a reason the Knicks gave $50mm to Larry Brown. Everyone knows we can score. Isiah figured if he could get these guys to actually guard we would win a lot of games, so on paper the LB signing makes complete and total sense. Its what happened next that was ugly. Regardless LB is still the only guy suited for this job. If he wants some grinders then go get some. There is such a thing as making trades that fit both the future needs of the franchise and fits the style of play the coach wants as well.

Actually, if what you're saying is true - the Brown signing made no sense. You're saying we don't have a championship caliber player to build around, yet we should start treating a team of young talented players as if we are playing for a championship. Wouldn't it make more sense to develop the players then package them in trades with some of our stickier contracts to get cap room?

As for every champ drafting their best player, I don't remember the Lakers drafting Shaq, maybe I'm wrong. If you're saying Kobe was their best player, that's laughable, but they traded for him on draft day anyway.

My point was that the Heat didn't plan their approach, they made the best of circumstances. The Spurs didn't plan to lose Robinson for a season, they got extremely lucky in what originally seemed like a bad situation.

You're talking about the best players in the entire NBA, of course they are going to be high lotto picks. Yes, Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan have accounted for 17 of the last 18 championships. But unless you hit the motherlode in the draft, and we're essentially talking about 4 players over the last twenty years, the draft is just as hit or miss as anything else. For the next ten years we'll probably be talking about Wade and Bron and maybe Dwight Howard and Oden.

Some excellent teams have been built in other ways: this years Mavs, the Nets that got to the Finals, the Pistons, the Kings from the early 2000s, the late 90s Blazers teams, the 90s Utah teams. If it comes down to those teams just not being good enough to beat the elite elite superstars, then I think we already missed our chance this decade.
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fishmike
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6/21/2006  1:57 PM
Kobe the best is laughable? Ever notice Shaq hasnt done very well in the playoffs without a superstar to take over in the 4th qtr? The Lakers picked Kobe in the draft and made a draft day trade for him. He's never played for any team but the Lakers. And the one non drafted guy on that list (I thought I mentioned that) was Shaq and he was aquired because the Lakers had cap space.

I said the LB signing made sense because the only way we were going to get this roster of painfully average players was to get them to play great team defense. I never so much as suggested that LB was going to make them a contender, but players from winning teams are more attractive, so Larry getting this group to overachieve was worth it IMO. We gave up on the draft, so no reason not to win.

Also despite a lot of losses and a roster bloated with expensive veteran contracts our young players got a lot of time. Also the time they got was in pretty big blocks. Rather than 5 minutes here and 10 minutes there we got to see Frye, JB, Lee and Nate play starter minutes over a block of games. Something Herb and Lenny didnt do
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Anji
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6/21/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

funny thing about the Heat, the only reason they were able to sign Odom was Anthony Carter was a day late trying to pick up his $5million option year. I guess that was all part of the Heat's plan though.
Cosign!!!!!!!!

Yeah, the Heat situation is like a movie script. I don't approve of the way Dolan puts pressure to have an "playoff" team on his GM's, but Capspace, Lottery picks, tanking and signing FA's don't get you titles. Because if you want to look at a Florida team, tell me were are the MAgics titles??? I mean in the span of a career(about 14 years) tHey have had SHAq, Howard, Penny, Tmac, GHill, Ben wallace and Steve Francis. LOL

I think our problem is we need to be willing to lose at the beinning of an season and not my moves that kill the future. BUt that Guarantees nothing, you also need alot of luck!!!!

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
cap space and lottery picks wins again...

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