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2005/2006 knicks - rehashed
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djsunyc
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6/9/2006  11:53 AM
what if it played out something like this:

- lb needs to be a dictator and needs to be in control of everything. that's how he's always been.

- when lb was hired, he thought he would be able to do whatever he wanted but certain things were "suggested." like crawford should start at point with marbury at sg. or this guy should start here or there, etc.

- so indication #1 that he wasn't going to do what isiah told him was not starting crawford and dnp'ing the first round pick. why? b/c he wants the team to give him carte blanche in his coaching.

- all the while, isiah doesn't know why lb is doing this and is probably voicing this to the players. ( i.e. steph: "isiah, what's up with coach, why is he doing this?" isiah: "i don't know man, i don't know why he's doing it"). the result of this, the players and isiah are together, and lb is viewed as the enemy.

- so lb, sensing he really doesn't have full control of the team decided to talk bad about the roster and criticize those that weren't on his side. (on a side note, crawford played everything politically correct, remaining friends with isiah and steph, but also doing what lb wanted)

- all the while, isiah is reporting back to mills and dolan that lb is sabotaging the team (which theoretically, he is. he's pretty much giving a full F YOU to management)

so at the end of the day, you have dolan, isiah, and the players on one side, with lb on the other.

team's position: "hey, we're paying you $10 mil to coach this team. you said you were going to do this but didn't. we asked you to play certain guys or we're committed to the youth and don't like how you handled them. what's your problem?"

lb's position: "hey, when you hire a coach like me, you have to let me do what i want. you can't try to make me compromise on certain things b/c that's not me. i've coached 30 years, i've coached the same way and most importantly, i win, that's why you gave me $50 mil. you call me up and say: "larry, we love what you did in philly and eveywhere else. come and do that for us". sure, i'm here and i'm going to fix it but now you want to handcuff me from doing what i want? i'm not a yes man. you want to save the knicks or not? that's what i do. and i'm going to do what i want and that way wins. you said it was my team so let me coach it the way i want to and if certain players don't fit, i want them gone."

so it was a constant struggle for control of the team. isiah had a view and a direction but he ultimately made a BAD business decision hiring lb. but that's just another example of their ineptitude b/c it's been nothing but bad business decisions for a while.

lb is lb.
marbury is marbury.
jerome james is jerome james.

you have to evaluate what you're doing before hiring or bringing in these people. if you're going to hire lb (just like with riles or pjax), you get out of his way and let him do what he wants. otherwise there's no point in hiring him (or riles or pjax), especially in a situation like ours. they are not yes-men. lenny was forced to become one so he quit. he wasn't going to put up with it either.

i don't think this is a morals issue, like who's right and who's wrong. i think it's more about the decisions being made to bring certain people in here without any real thought as to the ramifications.

for dolan, isiah, and the players, for THEIR best interest, it's best to fire lb and get themselves a guy that'll do what he's told...aka a yes-man. maybe that's why they're so high on herb. but you see, this doesn't necessarily mean they're going to win b/c dolan, isiah (as an executive), and the players never really won before and may not know what it takes to win.

but for the best interest of the TEAM aka winning, then you give the keys to lb and let him drive the car...

otherwise you get rid of EVERYBODY and start fresh.

the players are just pawns in this. they don't know anything. it's really about who is going to fix this and who's going to have their way. isiah has a huge ego. so does lb. both of them are aholes. both of them are not nice people. one is smooth and charismatic. the other is brash and candid. one has never won as an executive and one has won everywhere he's been. and neither like to play with others.

these are YOUR new york knicks...

of course, i'm just thinking out loud here...
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rvhoss
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6/9/2006  12:12 PM
this did deserve a full thread, and i think it's accurate to the t...while some people are taking LB's side and saying:
Dolan sell the team, fire zeke and trade 60% of the roster and then I'll coach.

Have you guys any idea how absurd that sounds? You wonder why we think LB must be nuts.

How about, coach the youth, move towards getting the team better and over the next 2 years the malcontents will be gone.

I say LB should stay and think more about being a coach and less about being a baby.
all kool aid all the time.
crzymdups
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6/9/2006  12:15 PM
the Vecsey article has some good answers to this:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67278.htm
What's not true, I'm counseled, is my assertion Thomas is championing the charge to dump Brown overboard, buyout or not. While, there's no doubt Thomas is livid at Brown for undermining his ability to trade alleged assets by relentlessly accentuating their defects to the media, Next Town has alienated Dolan to a far greater degree. From what I'm able to piece together, Dolan has been in an unforgiving mood for months and months because Brown routinely refused to adhere to the owner's phone and behind-closed-door orders.

Only two weeks into the season, after a game at Golden State, Brown was told in no uncertain terms to mute his negativity toward Stephon Marbury, who declined to let the comments slide and called out his coach. Dolan and Thomas have chosen to keep their grievances in house, before and after the news of Brown's impending deportation got out.

Despite many more warnings from Dolan to zip it, Brown's withering words at the expense of Poisonbury, and many teammates continued unabated for the remainder of the season.

"Larry's mistake was picking a fight with Dolan," says someone in the know.

Many people look at how Brown's situation is being handled and feel the Knicks should be above publicly embarrassing their Hall of Fame coach, that in spite of his unprofessional conduct, he deserves respect for contributing so much to the league and the sport.

Dolan feels Brown is trying to embarrass the Knicks into paying him off. That belief is validated each time Brown grants an interview regarding his situation. Following my story, the owner gave explicit instructions to everyone in the organization not to discuss the matter. Only in the past few days has the repeated message seemingly seeped into Brown.

By all accounts from the Nets, to the Pacers, to the 76ers, to the Pistons, normally Brown doesn't take on his bosses and his players until two or three years into a contract. The Knicks knew that going in and were prepared to deal with it accordingly when the time came. They definitely knew about the eccentric they were getting.

"But when Larry acted like he did right away, it caught Dolan and Thomas by complete surprise," underscores a former Brown supporter.
¿ △ ?
Elite
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6/9/2006  12:19 PM
get rid of everyone and start fresh
crzymdups
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6/9/2006  12:22 PM
Posted by Elite:

get rid of everyone and start fresh

the question is: can we ever make it work with Dolan here? I really don't know. He's like a retarded version of the 80s Steinbrenner who has to deal with a luxury tax and salary cap...
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Swishfm3
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6/9/2006  12:32 PM
Very good thread.

rvhoss
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6/9/2006  12:37 PM
ummm...no.
Posted by Elite:

get rid of everyone and start fresh



[Edited by - rvhoss on 06-09-2006 12:37 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
McK1
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6/9/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by Elite:

get rid of everyone and start fresh

great idea
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
nixluva
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6/9/2006  1:27 PM
I think that this is most likely what happened. Its sad cuz I think if both sides compromised a bit we could've had something in a few years. I mean we KNEW it wasn't gonna happen over night. So in one sense Isiah wasn't wrong in wanting to bring in LB. How could he know that he'd be so inpatient, when he accepted the job knowing that it was going to take time. I remember LB saying he was shocked that Isiah traded TT and Sweets. Doesn't that sound a bit fake. I mean does LB really think we believe that Isiah didn't tell him he was gonna trade those guys. We can't get rid of Dolan, so we can only hope that Isiah can get the job done. He's not a bad coach. Players seem to like playing for him and they credit him with helping them develop, so maybe this is the right guy for this team after all.
Killa4luv
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6/9/2006  2:05 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

- so lb, sensing he really doesn't have full control of the team decided to talk bad about the roster and criticize those that weren't on his side.
He started this 2 weeks into the season. What do you mean by full control? He's the coach, he had full control of coaching them and did it poorly. I disagree with your assessment, because he did that everywhere he's gone. Is it because he didn't have full control there?
- all the while, isiah is reporting back to mills and dolan that lb is sabotaging the team (which theoretically, he is. he's pretty much giving a full F YOU to management)
Wrong. He was not theoretically sabotaging the team, he was actually sabotaging the team. And he is giving a full F you to management, and the fans, and the organization, by publicly trashing players and making them less tradeable than they would have been if he coached them successfully and we had a decent season. And Isiah was correct to report that to his boss.


[Edited by - killa4luv on 06-09-2006 2:06 PM]

[Edited by - killa4luv on 06-09-2006 2:07 PM]
djsunyc
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6/9/2006  2:10 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by djsunyc:

- so lb, sensing he really doesn't have full control of the team decided to talk bad about the roster and criticize those that weren't on his side.
He started this 2 weeks into the season. What do you mean by full control? He's the coach, he had full control of coaching them and did it poorly. I disagree with your assessment, because he did that everywhere he's gone. Is it because he didn't have full control there?

he actually started it in preseason.

full control means he has 100% backing from the gm. so if isiah brought in player A, and lb wants player A gone, isiah would more or less agree to it. if he wanted to bench player A and start player B, he would not be questioned.

bigbeast
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6/9/2006  2:17 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Elite:

get rid of everyone and start fresh

the question is: can we ever make it work with Dolan here? I really don't know. He's like a retarded version of the 80s Steinbrenner who has to deal with a luxury tax and salary cap...


Knicks can definitely win with Dolan. He puts his money where his mouth is terms of trying to build a winner. How many times do you here fans of teams (especially in baseball) screaming about owners pocketing revenue instead of putting it back into the team. Dolan doesn't hesitate to shell out the dollars to put a good product on the hardwood.

Dolan just needs good basketball minds in the front office making solid basketball decisions with his money.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Killa4luv
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6/9/2006  2:21 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by djsunyc:

- so lb, sensing he really doesn't have full control of the team decided to talk bad about the roster and criticize those that weren't on his side.
He started this 2 weeks into the season. What do you mean by full control? He's the coach, he had full control of coaching them and did it poorly. I disagree with your assessment, because he did that everywhere he's gone. Is it because he didn't have full control there?

he actually started it in preseason.

full control means he has 100% backing from the gm. so if isiah brought in player A, and lb wants player A gone, isiah would more or less agree to it. if he wanted to bench player A and start player B, he would not be questioned.

And you beleive that he did not have this? That he did not at least begin with this?
So if he started it in pre-season, it couldnt possibly be because he realized he didn't have full control. There is no indication that anything happened, or could have happened in pre-season to indicate that he didn't have control which is what you claim was the catalyst for Brown's bashing.

Brown was bashing because he thinks thats good coaching and he thinks that would make Isiah trade the guys he bashes.
Killa4luv
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6/9/2006  2:23 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Elite:

get rid of everyone and start fresh

the question is: can we ever make it work with Dolan here? I really don't know. He's like a retarded version of the 80s Steinbrenner who has to deal with a luxury tax and salary cap...


Knicks can definitely win with Dolan. He puts his money where his mouth is terms of trying to build a winner. How many times do you here fans of teams (especially in baseball) screaming about owners pocketing revenue instead of putting it back into the team. Dolan doesn't hesitate to shell out the dollars to put a good product on the hardwood.

Dolan just needs good basketball minds in the front office making solid basketball decisions with his money.

excellent point.
fishmike
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6/9/2006  2:26 PM
whats funny is LB did in one year what Isiah has done since he's been here. Change his plan every 2 weeks, get bored of a rotation every 2 weeks, lie, back stab players, piss off fans. More you think about it he's perfect here. Looks like he's working well within the MSG model
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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6/9/2006  2:35 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

So if he started it in pre-season, it couldnt possibly be because he realized he didn't have full control.

why not? you could know day one on the job how things will play out. it's also very possible that he was promised moves and then isiah took it back. we don't know. all this is is just opinion of why things happened the way they did.

you're right about one thing, lb bashes and bashes and bashes. but he also wins, wins, and wins which is the only thing, albeit important, that makes him palatable. if he didn't win, bosses don't want a guy like that around. and that's what we're seeing now.
Bippity10
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6/9/2006  2:40 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Killa4luv:

So if he started it in pre-season, it couldnt possibly be because he realized he didn't have full control.

why not? you could know day one on the job how things will play out. it's also very possible that he was promised moves and then isiah took it back. we don't know. all this is is just opinion of why things happened the way they did.

you're right about one thing, lb bashes and bashes and bashes. but he also wins, wins, and wins which is the only thing, albeit important, that makes him palatable. if he didn't win, bosses don't want a guy like that around. and that's what we're seeing now.

Okay fine. You don't like him. Fire him and be a professional organization and move to the next step. What we are doing right now helps noone.
I just hope that people will like me
BasketballJones
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6/9/2006  2:46 PM
Everything is fine as it is. We don't need to know if Larry is going to be the coach next year, and neither does Larry. It's better when everything is up in the air and nobody knows what's going to happen next. Keeps everybody on their toes. The main thing I need to know is, when is the next "JD & The Straight Shot" concert? Will there be a national tour? Becuase I was thinking of quitting my job to follow them around the country.
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Bippity10
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6/9/2006  2:47 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Everything is fine as it is. We don't need to know if Larry is going to be the coach next year, and neither does Larry. It's better when everything is up in the air and nobody knows what's going to happen next. Keeps everybody on their toes. The main thing I need to know is, when is the next "JD & The Straight Shot" concert? Will there be a national tour? Becuase I was thinking of quitting my job to follow them around the country.



I just hope that people will like me
2005/2006 knicks - rehashed

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