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An answer for Iraq?
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Marv
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4/30/2006  12:17 PM
Is Iraq going to need to split into 3 separate states for Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds???

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/weekinreview/30filkins.html?pagewanted=print

April 30, 2006
The World
Votes Counted. Deals Made. Chaos Wins.

By DEXTER FILKINS
BAGHDAD, Iraq

THE country's new leaders were only five days into their jobs Thursday morning, when a BMW filled with armed men pulled alongside a van carrying the sister of Iraq's new Sunni vice president, Tariq al-Hashemi. The men opened fire, killing Maysoon al-Hashemi, a 61-year-old grandmother.

Just two weeks before, Mr. Hashemi's brother Mahmoud, a father of six, was shot to death in a similar way. At his sister's funeral service Thursday, Mr. Hashemi walked behind her coffin and looked on as his men lifted it into an S.U.V. that then carried her to Martyrs' Cemetery in northern Baghdad. The silver-haired Mr. Hashemi turned and walked away, his head hung low. "Let's go back, guys," he said to his men. Ms. Hashemi's murder offered not just another reminder of the horrible sacrifices made by so many Iraqis who have signed on to the American-backed democratic project here. It also highlighted what has become the single most confounding paradox of Iraq's and America's three-year-old war: that the democratic process, seen as the main hope for ending the violence, has been unable to stop it. Two constitutions, two elections and a referendum later, Iraq is reeling toward more chaos, not less.

The Iraqis who gathered last week around the newly chosen prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, said they saw a fresh chance to bind the communities back together and put the country on a path toward normalcy. Indeed, a sense of relief pervaded the offices of Iraqi officials, who had finally broken a deadlock over results of popular elections that took place more than four months ago.

But the question hanging over the parliamentary votes last weekend was whether the elected leaders, most of them now barricaded inside the protected Green Zone, could do anything to stop the slide toward anarchy and civil war. Two years' worth of dealmaking by Iraq's elites has proved largely irrelevant to the realities unfolding on the ground.

In northern Baghdad, Shiite families arrive regularly at the Muamal Sadr refugee camp, fleeing the ethnic cleansing that is transforming the mixed cities around Baghdad. Four months ago, the camp was a vacant lot; today, about 150 families live there, many of them in tents provided by the government.

One of the newly arrived is Kharmut Hanoon, a 40-year-old farmer from Abu Ghraib, who said he abandoned his home and a pair of wheat fields a month ago after gunmen driving Opel sedans started killing Shiites in his neighborhood. "They just drive by and shoot you," he said.

Now, Mr. Hanoon and 14 relatives share a pair of tents at the camp. "Can you imagine that anyone would ever leave his home, for any reason?" sighed Mr. Hanoon, waving a cigarette. "Only bad people and gypsies live in tents."

Mr. Hanoon said the ugliness that forced him to flee was not a passing phenomenon, but the final measure of Iraq's Sunnis. When he packed his belongings and prepared to leave, he said, not a single one of his Sunni neighbors stopped by to say goodbye.

"It's in their genes," he said. "It's a disease. They hate the Shiites. I don't think things will ever go back to normal between Shiites and Sunnis."

According to the Iraqi government, about 14,000 families — probably close to 100,000 people — have been displaced by the violence. More than 80 percent, the government said, are Shiites. About 2,000 Iraqis have been killed since the Askariya Shrine, a holy Shiite mosque in Samarra, was destroyed in a bombing two months ago.

There is no way to verify such figures, but a similar despair pervades conversations with Sunnis. Omar al-Jabouri, who runs the Iraq Islamic Party's human rights office, keeps a photo album by his desk. It contains picture after picture of Sunni men who have been executed and tortured to death by, Mr. Jabouri says, Shiite death squads and their comrades in the Interior Ministry.

"These people were burned with acid," Mr. Jabouri said, pointing to a tableau of mangled corpses.

"This man, they used an electric drill," he said, flipping another page.

"Can you see this?" Mr. Jabouri said, turning the book for a visitor. "They drove nails into his head."

Finally Mr. Jabouri sighed.

"They have invented new methods," he said.

The mistrust for the Shiite-dominated government runs so deep in Sunni neighborhoods that some have tried to keep government forces out altogether. Earlier this month, when word spread that Interior Ministry commandos were planning to sweep the area, residents in the Adamiya district took up arms and sealed off the main roads. They dragged fallen date palms into the streets and piled bricks across others.

When the commandos finally came, the Iraqis said, the men of Adamiya were waiting for them. An all-night gun battle erupted, with dead on both sides. The commandos finally retreated. "For us, as Sunni people, we know that if the police take you, they will interrogate you and shoot you," said Mohammed Jaffar, 24, who took part in the fighting.

As often happens these days in conversations with ordinary Iraqis, Mr. Jaffar at first offered a reasonable explanation for the events in Adamiya, and then plunged into conspiracy theory. The police commandos are loyal only to the Shiite political parties that control the government, Dawa and the Supreme Council, Mr. Jaffar said, an assessment that many Iraqi and American officials endorse. Then he added: "The Shiites have a secret 50-year plan to turn Iraqi into an Islamic state like Iran. We know this from the Sunnis in Iran. There will be very few Sunnis left in Iraq, and they will not be able to resist."

Full-fledged civil war, with widespread ethnic bloodletting and mass migrations, has not yet come to Iraq. But a week's worth of conversations with ordinary Iraqis leaves one wondering if the government, even with American help, can any longer prevent this from happening. In casual discussions, Iraqis already express the view that their country will be split three ways, with a Kurdish state in the north, a Sunni one in the west, and a Shiite one in the south. The Tigris River would form the border where the new Sunni and Shiite states would meet in central Baghdad, and the capital's mixed Sunni-Shiite neighborhoods would be cleansed on each side of the river.

"There are things that have happened in this country that are irreversible," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq's national security adviser. "It will take a lot of time, and the government will need to do a lot to bring the communities together."

And if drawing the Sunnis into the democratic process, which began last autumn with the drafting of the Constitution, was supposed to begin to defuse the insurgency, that hasn't worked, either. In the first four months of 2006, at least 217 American soldiers have been killed and 1,127 wounded.

At this stage, very few Iraqis, even those of good will, have many fresh ideas about stopping the country's disintegration. One of the more ambitious plans is to disband the private militias, which generate much of the mayhem. Yet even after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called on them last week to disband, that prospect seemed a long shot.

Indeed, in these bleak days most solutions tend toward sentimental, vague and nostalgic pleas for an Iraq where Sunni and Shiite live together without strife.

Mahmoud Mashhadani, the new speaker of the Parliament, recalled his days as a prisoner in Saddam Hussein's jails from 2000 to 2002. Mr. Mashhadani, a Sunni Islamist, said that in the cells, religious zeal took a back seat to helping one another stay alive.

"Sunni, Shiite, Communist, Kurd — we all cried together," he said in his office. "Prison was a very good school."

Khalid

[Edited by - marv on 04-30-2006 12:18 PM]
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Silverfuel
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4/30/2006  12:48 PM
Once agian, awesome article Marv.
Posted by Marv:

Full-fledged civil war, with widespread ethnic bloodletting and mass migrations, has not yet come to Iraq. But a week's worth of conversations with ordinary Iraqis leaves one wondering if the government, even with American help, can any longer prevent this from happening.
I'm almost sure that a civil war is coming. There is a lot of distrust & hatred between the two ethnic communities and peace without war is impossible. It would be really stupid for the American army to try and interfere. Its unfortunately too late for Iraq. If the army stays, they get involved on the side of the Shia dominated government and lose soldiers. If they leave, an all out civil war ensues. Either way, the middle east will be very very unstable. The only solution to this is splitting the country up! Its really sad but its gotta happen. Good post Marv.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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4/30/2006  12:49 PM
Forgot to mention that in my opinion, there is no way any side will agree to split the country up.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 04-30-2006 12:49 PM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Marv
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4/30/2006  1:47 PM
It's just sickening to think about the human toll. Maybe mankind's just destined to forever play out these violent campaigns. We can be a stubborn and stupid lot, wouldn't you say?

Btw Silver when you get a sec check out the article I posted in the Bush thread on Freud's take on the appeal of fundamentalism and tyrants. I'd be interested in hearing your reaction. Freud was nutty on some topics but razor-sharp on others.
Mac
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5/21/2006  12:28 PM
I admit that I didn't read this article.

However, I've heard from analysts that a split is highly unlikely because in any given family, brother and sister could be sunni and shiite... And kurd is an ethnic group, like the omish...
Silverfuel
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5/21/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by Mac:

I admit that I didn't read this article.

However, I've heard from analysts that a split is highly unlikely because in any given family, brother and sister could be sunni and shiite... And kurd is an ethnic group, like the omish...
It needs to be split up. The only reason that country has been held together is because its always been ruled by someONE.

I've never heard that a family can be either Shiah or Sunni split. The way I understood it was an entire community of Muslims are either Shiah or Sunni. I'd be shocked to find otherwise. Anyway you can point me to an article Mac?
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Mac
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5/21/2006  3:22 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Mac:

I admit that I didn't read this article.

However, I've heard from analysts that a split is highly unlikely because in any given family, brother and sister could be sunni and shiite... And kurd is an ethnic group, like the omish...
It needs to be split up. The only reason that country has been held together is because its always been ruled by someONE.

I've never heard that a family can be either Shiah or Sunni split. The way I understood it was an entire community of Muslims are either Shiah or Sunni. I'd be shocked to find otherwise. Anyway you can point me to an article Mac?

I'm sure you can google the differences between sunni's and shiites (i.e. who is in charge of the caliph (a blood relative of muhammed or an elected (good example: "Imam" Ayatollah Khomeini); predetermination; etc) for they are factions just like christianity has catholicism and protestant... Just like there are strict and loose intrepretations of the constitution...

<hmm...> now after doing some google searching, i've failed to come up with anything which states that a family can be either sunni or shiite within... The best i've come up with is under baath party rules, sunnis and shias could marry which leads to mixed families. I wish I wrote down the analyst I cited earlier... Oh well. I guess I should reevaluate my sources.

here's something: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5243875
Silverfuel
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5/21/2006  3:36 PM
Mac: I knew what the difference between the two sects are. Thats not what I was asking about. I actually had a conversation about with a muslim friend. Shiah/Sunni rivalry is extremely fierce which is what really surprised me when you said a single family can have Shiah brothers and Sunni sisters. That is very surprising. I'm going to ask my friend how that can be possible, because its not a choice that can be made. I dont know if you were aware of this but Islam does not allow you to change religions. They aren't as strict about changing sects but its a de facto rule. See, I wasnt that surprised to hear about the marriage between the two sects but the chils takes on the mothers sect as far as I understand.

The analyst you reffered to who talked about the split is also missing the point of the split. If there is a Kurdistan or a separate land for Shiah, the Shiah around the country wont be forced to move to that land. They will have the choice to stay in whichever part. It will however help quash a lot of the struggle. The inter sect voilence is a killer!

Kurds on the other hand are very interesting. We should've used their help a lot more in this war. The Northern Alliance got a ton of help from thier people in Iran and Turkey and they deserve their piece of land. They are mistreated in all 3 countries, not becase they choose to. If the country breaks up, all the kurds from Turkey will move into North Iraqian Kurdistan.

One of the things the Shiah and the Kurds have to worry about is the influence of the Wahabi's. I think the US should be keeping an eye on them as well. Be very careful of the Arab Wahabi clan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabi
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
An answer for Iraq?

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