Big Market Mess
posted: Thursday, April 20, 2006

The Northeast's three big cities -- all basketball mecca's in their own right -- are on the outside looking in on these playoffs, and boy do they want answers.

In Thursday's Philadelphia Daily News, they call for GM Billy King to trade Allen Iverson, and in Thursday's New York Daily News, they issue the latest call for Isiah Thomas's head.

Boston? We won't link the Celtics with the two lost clubs above because they have a bustling youth movement that could pay dividends in the future  Gerald Green, Kendrick Perkins, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson, Tony Allen. Green is going to be ferocious. He looks like the next great swingman.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what King does. It's obvious the Sixers are never going to win big with A.I., as great as he is. Still, King might want to try moving Chris Webber first.

Problem is, Webber is perhaps the most untradeable player in the league, what with the two years, $43 million-plus left on his contract and the gimpy knee and back that render him ineffective defensively.

A.I. would have some takers, and it might actually be easier for King to rebuild around Webber than Iverson. Iverson is such a unique player that not just anybody will fit with him.

Up the Turnpike in New York, it's even uglier. The Knicks organization, as well as many executives across the league, are absolutely baffled at the coaching job turned in by Larry Brown this season.

The rumblings throughout the organization and again, the league, are that Brown purposely sabotaged the season. But no one can prove that and you never want to publicly accuse someone of doing that. One team's president told me, "All I can say is that if he did that, he's one evil (expletive)."

While that sentiment is an indictment on Brown's character, it's actually a compliment to his coaching ability. No one who knows anything about the NBA can believe Brown could coach this badly unless he was trying to.

Many of the Knicks players believe Brown quit on them in December, saying his attention to preparation went south around Christmas.

Whatever the case, the Knicks are not considering firing him, which is smart. You don't fire a coach with Brown's credentials and history of turnarounds after one year. But at the same time, they're not sure he wants to come back , despite his statements that he's in it for the long haul. Such is the case when you have a history like Larry's.

Who can believe his or his agent's statements about his wanting to return? They were dropping the same line in Detroit all last season, even as Brown was chatting with Cleveland owner Dan Gilbert.

When the Knicks were in Detroit last week, folks in Motown were convinced Larry was creating an exit strategy (with his acid reflux).

I, for one, can't believe Brown would leave the Knicks after this disaster. I would think he's got too much pride to leave his hometown team in a heap after just one year. His entire claim to fame is his ability to rebuild clubs, so if he leaves New York after this year, his legacy will take a severe hit.

As for Isiah, well, I'm not saying he's been Jerry West, but any suggestion that he should be fired largely for hiring Brown is nuts. Who wouldn't have hired Brown?

A year ago, Brown was regarded as the best coach in basketball. And while Brown and for that matter, Thomas, knew the roster was flawed, Brown assured the Knicks he could work with it. Then, from Day 2, he started bashing his players in the press.

And while people want to rip Isiah for trading for Steve Francis and Jalen Rose, those were actually Brown's decisions. It's always been said about Brown that he likes other team's players better than his own, so it's not surprising that he wanted Francis and Rose -- until he got them.

If you want to blame Isiah for those moves, you can only blame him for listening to his coach. And any GM who has a coach with the stature of Brown, Riley, Jackson or Popovich pretty much does what the coach wants.

That said, it will be Brown's call on Starbury. If he wants him out, the Knicks will make every effort to move him. Good news in that regard came across the wire Thursday when T-Wolves owner Glen Taylor told the Minneapolis Star Tribune he would be willing to bring Marbury back to Minnesota if the Knicks will work with them financially.

I'd do it if I were running the Knicks. While Marbury's a great talent, his teammates dislike him so much that moving him will be addition by subtraction.

And I would love to see Steph and KG reunited. I may be naïve or foolish, but I'll give Steph one more chance (with KG and KG alone) before considering him a lost cause.

You wonder if King will do the same with A.I. in Philly.

While Marbury's a great talent, his teammates dislike him so much that moving him will be addition by subtraction.

sounds good to me.

[Edited by - TMS on 04-24-2006 12:57 PM]

"And while people want to rip Isiah for trading for Steve Francis and Jalen Rose, those were actually Brown's decisions. It's always been said about Brown that he likes other team's players better than his own, so it's not surprising that he wanted Francis and Rose -- until he got them.

If you want to blame Isiah for those moves, you can only blame him for listening to his coach. And any GM who has a coach with the stature of Brown, Riley, Jackson or Popovich pretty much does what the coach wants."

At least this is something Brown admits to, I think. Depends on what day it is. Maybe he only lets Marbs know the real total power he has within the organization.

Posted by Pharzeone:

"And while people want to rip Isiah for trading for Steve Francis and Jalen Rose, those were actually Brown's decisions. It's always been said about Brown that he likes other team's players better than his own, so it's not surprising that he wanted Francis and Rose -- until he got them.

If you want to blame Isiah for those moves, you can only blame him for listening to his coach. And any GM who has a coach with the stature of Brown, Riley, Jackson or Popovich pretty much does what the coach wants."

At least this is something Brown admits to, I think. Depends on what day it is. Maybe he only lets Marbs know the real total power he has within the organization.

There is no doubt those are Brown trades...Last year Raptors offered JRose with Vince Carter and Isiah turned it down, he didn't want JRose, now you are telling me a year removed he wanted JRose straight up after he was so hard up for Vinsanity???

It's really difficult to believe that Isiah would trade Reezy for Franchise...Reezy said that Brown was behind the trade....

Those are two trades I will never understand. We gave up Nazr and got back Rose (essentially)? Huh? That NEVER made any sense to me. And not going after Vince Carter when we had the chance. Unbelievable!! That was such a hugh miss! Not to mention the unprotected pics for the Curry deal. Those are the worst. Zeke sucks for those reasons!

Houston’s name has popped up in recent rumors regarding Toronto’s Vince Carter. But before the game, Thomas told reporters Houston isn’t going anywhere now. “There’s been talk about trading Allan Houston,” Thomas said. “That’s not going to happen. I like him. I want to see our team have a chance to play with him.” According to Monday’s papers, the Raptors don’t want Houston in any Carter deal, instead asking for Crawford, who is considered untouchable. Thomas also admitted he contacted Dwight Manley, the agent for Karl Malone but Malone wasn’t interested in the Knicks.

http://knicks.mostvaluablenetwork.com/2004/12/13/

Dec. 13th 2004 article

[Edited by - McK1 on 04-25-2006 08:26 AM]

rergarding Jalen:

On The Beat - Eastern Conference - Atlantic Division - December 15, 2004

New York Knicks (11-10)

The Knicks have won three of their last four games (against New Jersey, Denver, and New Orleans) as they perch on the top in the victory-deprived Atlantic Division… All-star G-Allan Houston made his season debut in a 106-104 loss to the Washington Wizards after recovering from knee surgery. Houston also missed the last 32 games of last season. In the three games since his return, Houston has averaged 6.7 points in just under 16 minutes a game. Coaches will give him limited minutes to ensure a safe recovery… Knicks GM-Isiah Thomas has reportedly been extremely active in negotiations with the Toronto Raptors to acquire their all-star G-Vince Carter. Sources have said that Thomas has offered G-Penny Hardaway, F-Tim Thomas, and F-Jerome Williams for Carter and G-Jalen Rose. The Raptors have not taking the offer seriously. There is now growing speculation that the Raptors will be interested if G-Jamal Crawford, C-Nazr Mohammed, or F-Kurt Thomas is included. The one trump card that the Knicks hold is their willingness to also take Rose and his high salary of the Raptors hands, something that no other interested teams are prepared to do.

[Edited by - McK1 on 04-25-2006 09:18 AM]

remember what Crawford looked like before and while a Knick

a senseless chucker

no sweeping Crawford over Carter under the rug.

but thomas is the one who works for NY.

you agree to including Crawford you still have a

Marbury-Carter backcourt

Isiah was willing to take on rose so you have Steph-Vince-Rose in the 88-89 3 guard wet dream

Posted by McK1:

but thomas is the one who works for NY.

you agree to including Crawford you still have a

Marbury-Carter backcourt

Isiah was willing to take on rose so you have Steph-Vince-Rose in the 88-89 3 guard wet dream

No offense but this is a silly post. Why didn't the Knicks get T-Mac then, why didn't they get J-Kidd? Shouldn't they have traded to draft Kobe? Vince Carter is one of the best surprises this season and 2 half of last season but don't give me this crap that Thomas should have known for sure because he is Knick GM. Carter looked horrible, told the world that he isn't given it his all, and somehow Thomas should trade away a player that he liked for Carter.

Posted by Pharzeone:



No offense but this is a silly post. Why didn't the Knicks get T-Mac then, why didn't they get J-Kidd? Shouldn't they have traded to draft Kobe? Vince Carter is one of the best surprises this season and 2 half of last season but don't give me this crap that Thomas should have known for sure because he is Knick GM. Carter looked horrible, told the world that he isn't given it his all, and somehow Thomas should trade away a player that he liked for Carter.

none taking

wasn't Vin Baker Isiah's rehab project and who he GAVE most of the MLE money too because he and crawford have the same agent. yet instill we traded him along with 2 2nds for Mo taylor who also wasn't giving his all and sitting on Houstons bench getting fat.

You can gameble on Mo, but you don't gamble on Vince Carter.

when you look at the context of Isiah's dealings as Knicks GM no offense but that was a silly response.

Carter prior to the year he wanted out:

 1998-99 TOR 50 35.2  6.9 15.3 45.0   0.4 1.3 28.8   4.1 5.4 76.1   1.9 3.8 5.7   3.0 2.2 1.1 1.5 2.8 18.3   
 1999-00 TOR 82 38.1  9.6 20.7 46.5   1.2 2.9 40.3   5.3 6.7 79.1   1.8 4.0 5.8   3.9 2.2 1.3 1.1 3.2 25.7   
 2000-01 TOR 75 39.7  10.2 22.1 46.0   2.2 5.3 40.8   5.1 6.7 76.5   2.4 3.2 5.6   3.9 2.2 1.5 1.1 2.7 27.6   
 2001-02 TOR 60 39.8  9.3 21.8 42.8   2.0 5.2 38.7   4.1 5.1 79.8   2.3 2.9 5.2   4.0 2.6 1.6 0.7 3.2 24.7   
 2002-03 TOR 43 34.2  8.3 17.7 46.7   1.1 3.1 34.4   3.0 3.7 80.6   1.4 3.0 4.4   3.3 1.7 1.1 1.0 2.8 20.6   
 2003-04 TOR 73 38.2  8.3 20.0 41.7   1.3 3.3 38.3   4.6 5.7 80.6   1.3 3.5 4.8   4.8 3.1 1.2 0.9 2.9 22.5  

Crawford:

 2000-01 CHI 61 17.2  1.8 5.0 35.2   0.7 1.9 35.0   0.4 0.6 79.4   0.2 1.3 1.5   2.3 1.4 0.7 0.2 1.1 4.6   
 2001-02 CHI 23 20.9  3.9 8.1 47.6   1.1 2.5 44.8   0.4 0.6 76.9   0.2 1.3 1.5   2.4 1.4 0.8 0.2 0.8 9.3   
 2002-03 CHI 80 24.9  4.2 10.1 41.3   1.1 3.0 35.5   1.3 1.6 80.6   0.3 2.1 2.3   4.2 1.7 1.0 0.3 1.6 10.7   
 2003-04 CHI 80 35.1  6.4 16.5 38.6   2.1 6.5 31.7   2.5 3.0 83.3   0.6 3.0 3.5   5.1 2.4 1.4 0.4 2.0 17.3 

suprise of the season HA!!!!!

seems more like he decided to go back to playing at the level he was his first 6 friggin years...sheesh!

[Edited by - McK1 on 04-25-2006 12:02 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 04-25-2006 12:03 PM]