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why can chicago be in the playoffs...but we can't?
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djsunyc
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4/23/2006  11:33 PM
marbury, jamal, quentin, nate, lee, malik, qyntel, frye, mo, curry, james, butler, etc.

are more talented than

hinrich, gordon, duhon, allen, nocioni, deng, sweets, chandler, othella, etc.

so why are they in the playoffs? defense.

i can't think of a better example than chicago for why building a team on defense and hustle is imperative if you don't have a franchise superstar and also my contention that since we don't have one single defender on the team, even at peak performance, we wouldn't be any better than a 35-38 win team.
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oohah
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4/23/2006  11:39 PM
so why are they in the playoffs? defense.

And they know their roles. They have a consistent playing style and rotations. They play an uptempo style that meshes with their abilities.

And aren't they a wee bit more talented than you are giving them credit for?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
djsunyc
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4/23/2006  11:42 PM
Posted by oohah:
so why are they in the playoffs? defense.

And they know their roles. They have a consistent playing style and rotations. They play an uptempo style that meshes with their abilities.

And aren't they a wee bit more talented than you are giving them credit for?

oohah

the one thing about the rotations - they're all over the place. skiles mixes and matches based on matchups as many of them are interchangeable.

they are talented but i don't think they're more talented than we are. they are definitely tougher and work harder, but in terms of talent, i'm not so sure. at the worst case, we're on the same level.
oohah
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4/23/2006  11:44 PM
the one thing about the rotations - they're all over the place. skiles mixes and matches based on matchups as many of them are interchangeable.

Skiles can be out there with his lineups, but it was nothing compared to what we watched.

I agree that they have way more heart than the Knicks.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Killa4luv
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4/24/2006  9:12 AM
Their coach is not a bi-polar diva. And yes they do play tough.
WOODMANnYk
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4/24/2006  9:22 AM
Also, you must figure that their payroll is not skyrocketed.. with that, they're able to utilize options and maneuvers..

If your payroll is skyrocketed to 100mm, it's tough to compete for the ultimate goal which is a championship..

last yrs team in the finals, pistons and Spurs payroll are half the knicks payroll..

Chicago also has a system where everyone knows their role and listens to the coach..

Knicks have better talent but talent isn't everything.. it's more the will,commitment and effort of a player than talent..
The Future. GO KNICKS!
djsunyc
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4/24/2006  9:56 AM
actually, skiles criticizes the players that don't try quite heavily in the press there. a big difference tho is that paxson and skiles are one in the same - they are a united front. so whatever coach says, goes. but their payroll and their character play HEAVILY in how the coach treats them.

i still can't see lb whining and moaning about a roster that just tries hard and busts ass no matter what the situation. he would have no justification to.
islesfan
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4/24/2006  12:03 PM
I'm so sick of this set rotation whining. Having a set rotation is more than just saying "Ok, you 5 start and you 3-4 come off the bench with 2 minutes left in the 1st quarter". It's about having players who complement each other and don't duplicate other players strengths and weaknesses. It's about players who will put their egos aside and accept their roles and play the way the coach asks them to play.

LB didn't have a chance in hell with this collection of players, and that's pretty much what they are because we know they aren't a team, so how could anyone blame him for not having a set rotation.

LB was brought in with Isiah's mess already assembled, he just had to manage it the best he could. Did he do a great or even good job? Not at all but under the circumstances he gets a bigger pass than anybody else involved.

i still can't see lb whining and moaning about a roster that just tries hard and busts ass no matter what the situation. he would have no justification to.

Exactly. It's the roster that was assembled by Isiah.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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4/24/2006  12:53 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Their coach is not a bi-polar diva. And yes they do play tough.
OMG.. Skiles is an ego mental case.. ask Kidd, they couldnt coexist in Pho.
Also Skiles kills guys in the media. He killed Tim Thomas, he killed Sweetney and he killed Curry last year. The difference is everyone on the Bulls plays and practices hard, or they dont get in the game.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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4/24/2006  12:59 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Killa4luv:

Their coach is not a bi-polar diva. And yes they do play tough.
OMG.. Skiles is an ego mental case.. ask Kidd, they couldnt coexist in Pho.
Also Skiles kills guys in the media. He killed Tim Thomas, he killed Sweetney and he killed Curry last year. The difference is everyone on the Bulls plays and practices hard, or they dont get in the game.

and yet Chicago is looking at two straight first round exits, thinking of trading Ben Gordon, regretting overpaying Chandler, looking at Nazr Mohammed as their big free agent signing and holding a high pick in a weak draft.

they're in much better shape than us, obviously, but when I turn on the playoffs, I always realize I don't want to be a team like Chicago or Washington that has no chance to get out of the first round. I mean, once the playoffs REALLY start, if you aren't an elite team or a team with a LeBron seeing how far he can carry you, there's really not much to watch but two weeks of agony. Everyone but San Antonio, Dallas and Detroit has a LOT of work to do.

I mean, Memphis is a GREAT regular season team, but they're looking at their third straight first round sweep loss. Isn't that almost MORE depressing than being at square one? I think it almost would be.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 04-24-2006 1:00 PM]
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McK1
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4/24/2006  1:07 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Killa4luv:

Their coach is not a bi-polar diva. And yes they do play tough.
OMG.. Skiles is an ego mental case.. ask Kidd, they couldnt coexist in Pho.
Also Skiles kills guys in the media. He killed Tim Thomas, he killed Sweetney and he killed Curry last year. The difference is everyone on the Bulls plays and practices hard, or they dont get in the game.

and yet Chicago is looking at two straight first round exits, thinking of trading Ben Gordon, regretting overpaying Chandler, looking at Nazr Mohammed as their big free agent signing and holding a high pick in a weak draft.

they're in much better shape than us, obviously, but when I turn on the playoffs, I always realize I don't want to be a team like Chicago or Washington that has no chance to get out of the first round. I mean, once the playoffs REALLY start, if you aren't an elite team or a team with a LeBron seeing how far he can carry you, there's really not much to watch but two weeks of agony. Everyone but San Antonio, Dallas and Detroit has a LOT of work to do.

I mean, Memphis is a GREAT regular season team, but they're looking at their third straight first round sweep loss. Isn't that almost MORE depressing than being at square one? I think it almost would be.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 04-24-2006 1:00 PM]

bull****. when the core of your team are all under 24, winning while young and biding your time is not some great blight.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
McK1
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4/24/2006  1:12 PM
guys like Gordon Hinrich Gasol Shane Miller already play like they've been in the league 8 or 9 years.

they are all 24 or under. how do you think they'll look once they actually have been in the league that long.

or does being only 23 or being only in your 4th or 5th year apply to jamal and Curry...or is prime age at 28, 29 only reserved for Steph?
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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4/24/2006  1:14 PM
let me ask you this. Whats the perception around the league of guys like Mike Miller, Battier, Gasol, Duhon, Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Chandler, Nocioni etc. versus the perception of Marbury, Francis or whoever you want to talk about on our team?

I would say both of those teams are in much better shape to improve than we are.

Whats the most depressing is praying your team has a shot to land Reggie Evans or anyone that plays hard. Bulls can look at and have a shot to add a francise guy. A Paul Pierce, TMac, Jermaine Oneil, the Bulls have a realistic shot to add a star to their young core of players. Whats our shot?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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4/24/2006  1:31 PM
Posted by fishmike:

let me ask you this. Whats the perception around the league of guys like Mike Miller, Battier, Gasol, Duhon, Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Chandler, Nocioni etc. versus the perception of Marbury, Francis or whoever you want to talk about on our team?

I would say both of those teams are in much better shape to improve than we are.

Whats the most depressing is praying your team has a shot to land Reggie Evans or anyone that plays hard. Bulls can look at and have a shot to add a francise guy. A Paul Pierce, TMac, Jermaine Oneil, the Bulls have a realistic shot to add a star to their young core of players. Whats our shot?

Here's the real perception around the league, is that Skiles is serious about coaching his team when he walks in to the arena, or gym. No master manipulation games going on, just basketball. As it becomes more and more clear, that basketball wasn't Brown's priority this year. Funny but Marbury did say that. One man only agenda was to get to the playoffs while the other's agenda's was unknown. Never once did I hear what Brown wanted to do this year. Except complaints, and pre-excuses that the roster is flawed, not defensively minded.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
djsunyc
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4/24/2006  1:35 PM
i'm still baffled by the sheer number of anti-lb people here. it's shocking. totally bewildering. lb is not the problem. let me repeat...lb is not the problem. stop b tching about him. the lineups, the rotations, the media BS, all means DICK. the only thing that means anything is that we have a roster made up of guys that are primadonnas. and we know this now. no more doubts. that's the MOST important thing out of this whole mess. why can't we focus on that first?
Bippity10
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4/24/2006  1:39 PM
No master manipulation????? The guy benched one guy for almost a season. Unofficially suspended two others and benched his entire starting line-up at least three times. In between he said that the Bulls should trade for a SG that can play both sides of the ball and openly shopped Ben Gordon because he wasn't playing defense.

All coach's play games. Fortunately for Skiles he has young guys that aren't lost yet and are willing to listen.

Our team has tuned out LB(whether he coached or not), Lenny(how quickly we forget), Herb(didn't see them rally around him to show their hatred for LB). The only guy whose team did not quit on him was Don Chaney. Same team that had Charlie Ward, Allan HOuston, KT, Weatherspoon, Spree. Guys with a history of playing hard and never quitting.

For once we need to realize we are a unique situation. We cannot be compared to any other team. We need to change the atmosphere here. The names don't matter. Change the type of player we have and how we run the organization. Then we can worry about the playoffs. Seven years of nonsense and we still are comparing ourselves to young, up and coming teams? Unreal. We never learn
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MS
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4/24/2006  1:59 PM
I can't believe someone is questioning where the bulls are they have one of the brightest futures in the NBA, I would rather be them then say Miami whose window is going to be shut soon....

They have great young players Nocioni, Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and two picks all they need to do is add sheldon williams with there late pick and they can put together a nice package and get a player like Garnett or JOneal (may consider for gordon and a number 1-3 pick to)......Thomas or Aldridge and Gordon would go nice with Jones, Peja, Granger, and Harrison
crzymdups
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4/24/2006  2:45 PM
Posted by McK1:

guys like Gordon Hinrich Gasol Shane Miller already play like they've been in the league 8 or 9 years.

they are all 24 or under. how do you think they'll look once they actually have been in the league that long.

or does being only 23 or being only in your 4th or 5th year apply to jamal and Curry...or is prime age at 28, 29 only reserved for Steph?

Gordon and Hinrich are very young. Gordon is extremely flawed in that he can't hope to guard an opposing SG. Tyson Chandler, who is making more than Eddy Curry, is a decent defender with no offensive game. He's Camby without the hops and has back problems.

Battier is 28. Mike Miller is 26. Gasol will be 26 in July and has had foot injuries slowing him each of the last two years. Memphis has been out of the first round three straight years and could be headed to Minnesota territory of eight straight years without advancing without major moves. and really, what chips do they have? they lost their chips like Stromile for nothing. if they trade Miller that's a huge chunk of their team. no one will overpay for Battier, as solid as he is.

Chicago is clearly in great shape if they make the right moves, but they could just as well wind up first or second round fodder for the next five or six years. Memphis, they're in okay shape, but if they're doign so well, why are they one of the few teams that would consider adding Marbury? Because their once young core is slowly getting older and they haven't made the next step yet.

I'm just saying, when I look at the NBA playoffs, there are a lot of teams that don't have any more hope of winning a championship in the next ten years than us. The bottom line is, in the NBA if you don't have a premier big man or a huge premier swingman, you have no chance at realistically advancing. Detroit is supposedly a "team without superstars," but Sheed and Ben Wallace are pretty damn close to superstar status.

It's this time of year when Isiah's recklessness at least makes some sort of sense. Were the moves horrible? Yes. But when you don't have a superstar, you kind of have to swing for the fences to try to get one. Curry COULD be a superstar. Sure, it's a flawed philosophy, but staying the course really won't get you much unless you win the lotto in a year where an Oden or Bron or Wade is available. Am I rationalizing? Maybe. But I think it's more depressing to be a Memphis fan right now than to be a Knicks fan.
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djsunyc
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4/24/2006  2:49 PM
Chicago is clearly in great shape if they make the right moves, but they could just as well wind up first or second round fodder for the next five or six years.

with the patience exhibited by paxson. with the way he's handled free agent situations like crawford and curry, and with the way he supports skiles and benched tim thomas, i don't see any reason to doubt paxson's ability to make chicago better.
crzymdups
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4/24/2006  2:54 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Chicago is clearly in great shape if they make the right moves, but they could just as well wind up first or second round fodder for the next five or six years.

with the patience exhibited by paxson. with the way he's handled free agent situations like crawford and curry, and with the way he supports skiles and benched tim thomas, i don't see any reason to doubt paxson's ability to make chicago better.

He's very conservative. Will he pull the trigger on a risky deal that has down side? Maybe not. And maybe he loses because of that.

Miami would have never gotten Shaq if they didn't pay Lamar Odom $65 million. Detroit never would have won anything if they didn't trade for Sheed, who people all over the league were terrified by. Those are risky moves that a guy like Paxson seems unwilling to pull the trigger on. I could see them playing this summer very conservatively.

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why can chicago be in the playoffs...but we can't?
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