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Did this year's team really have THAT much potential?
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technomaster
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4/19/2006  8:57 PM
Looking back at the some of the 55+win teams of the 90s, this team we sported this year was not even close.

Typical top 8 of the Riley teams
Ewing
Oakley
Smith
Starks
Rivers/Harper

Mason
Anthony
Hubert

Or... the 2nd version
Ewing
Oakley
LJ
Houston
Childs

Kurt Thomas
Starks
Ward/Mills/Dudley/Cummings/Buck


Those teams had very talented starting groups and incredibly solid benches.

What did we have this year:

Curry
Malik Rose
Richardson
Crawford
Marbury

Frye
Antonio Davis/Rose
Taylor?!

(later on we acquired Francis...)


We have a bunch of above average players, but I'd take any one of these wing players - Starks/Houston/Sprewell over any of our 2/3's this year (perhaps w/ the exception of Jalen Rose who I feel is roughly on par).

We have a poor man's LJ/Mason in Malik Rose--- but like I said, the poor man's version w/ lesser offensive/passing skills.

Likewise, we don't seem to have a match at either PF/C equivalent to Ewing or Oakley. Curry is good... as is Frye... and perhaps Butler. Let's just say we didn't get anywhere close to the typical 35+ppg/21rpg's we'd get night to night from Ewing/Oakley. Ewing/Oakley were among the best on both ends of the floor.

At PG, Marbury is by far the best offensive PG vs anyone in the 90s--- tho defensively, he's among the worst (save for Mark Jackson)-- certainly not the hawking defender that Harper/Rivers/Childs/Anthony were. Even little Charlie Ward was a pesky help defender, curling around corners and poking the ball away from post players.

So... compared to the 90s Knicks, there's very little that the 05-06 team does better. Those 90s teams had relatively complete players at every position--- guys who could contribute on both ends of the floor. None of the current Knicks (save Malik Rose) are known as good defenders (the jury is still out on our young players)... and once again, except Malik Rose, none of the Knicks have enjoyed much playoff exposure, let alone success.

That said... in a worst case scenario, would anyone have expected this team to be quite this bad?
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
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crzymdups
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4/19/2006  10:28 PM
yes, yes it did. Larry tried to play a defensive, slow it down offensive game with a team that was loaded with open court offensive players who couldn't defend in the half court.

what system do you think Mike D'Antoni would have run with this squad? I'm not saying we would have been great, but this team SHOULD have won 40 games. The x-factor is the injuries and before Jamal developed, we didn't have a replacement for Stephon.
¿ △ ?
OldFan
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4/19/2006  11:32 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

yes, yes it did. Larry tried to play a defensive, slow it down offensive game with a team that was loaded with open court offensive players who couldn't defend in the half court.

what system do you think Mike D'Antoni would have run with this squad? I'm not saying we would have been great, but this team SHOULD have won 40 games. The x-factor is the injuries and before Jamal developed, we didn't have a replacement for Stephon.

This team is not loaded with open court talent. But even if it was - you have to have less turnovers and your offense has to be able to score at a higher percentage then your defense gives up - which wasn't happening - no matter what pace the team played at.

Most teams that run consistently and successfully have pass first point guards.
crzymdups
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4/19/2006  11:36 PM
our turnovers went up by three per game with Brown here.

granted, we may not have great open court personel, but I think it's fair to say the system he developed did not play to this team's strengths. a more open game doesn't necessarily meaning running and gunning, but why force a team that can score not to score?

edit: also, zone defense. every other mediocre team in the NBA uses it. but apparently it's not the right way.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 04-19-2006 11:47 PM]
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jazz74
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4/20/2006  9:48 AM
i said it before and i will say it again. this team had more talent on paper than any team we had in the past 4 years. but we realize that talent doesn't matter. we need more role players and q rich and rose can't be the only ones.
djsunyc
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4/20/2006  9:53 AM
when everybody says talent...nobody takes defense into account.

we got guys that can accumulate nice stats, mainly points and assists. but where are the guys that rebound, steal, block shots, and defend? our best guys coming into the season were AD, malik, and trevor. nobody else on the team has played consistent defense their entire careers. but for some reason, people forget about that.

and i don't want to hear about the pheonix example b/c they have a guy named marion, who does more defensively than all of our frontcourt players put together.
BasketballJones
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4/20/2006  2:13 PM
I don't know - I didn't start out this year expecting the Knicks to be great, but I was shocked and disappointed by how bad the actually turned out to be. I think there were a lot of mitigating circumstances, but none of us is in any mood to hear a lot of excuses at this point.

I've consistently said there's plenty of blame to go around, and the Knicks as a franchise and organization really need to get their act together and figure out what they're all about. If this team has an identity, it's not a positive or a successful one. But I think the problem really is that it has no identity, and that needs to change.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 04-20-2006 14:13]
https:// It's not so hard.
TMS
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4/20/2006  2:23 PM
Posted by jazz74:

i said it before and i will say it again. this team had more talent on paper than any team we had in the past 4 years. but we realize that talent doesn't matter. we need more role players and q rich and rose can't be the only ones.

they aren't the only ones... we have some good young talented players that can be good role players in Lee, Nate, Butler, Q Woods & Jamal too... what we NEED is a leader... we don't have one.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Pharzeone
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4/20/2006  2:47 PM
Everytime I think I get ready to give into this arguement that this team isn't really talented? I just think about this article that really did not generate any heat on this board. Curiously.

NY Post
March 20, 2006 -- Heat coach Pat Riley said Knick fans must relax and be patient.
"I love their young players," Riley said before the Heat's 111-100 victory over the Knicks last night at the Garden.

"They have a lot of good young players so they just keep working it so that is what they have to do. You are never going to make anyone happy in New York unless you win. They are not going to have any kind of patience with rebuilding unless you show results, so they are having a difficult time," he said.

The former Knick coach put the onus on Larry Brown last month when the Heat were in town on the day of the Steve Francis trade, saying "the cupboard is full" regarding the Knicks' talent.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bippity10
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4/20/2006  3:43 PM
The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?
I just hope that people will like me
BasketballJones
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4/20/2006  4:30 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"
https:// It's not so hard.
djsunyc
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4/20/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"

i think when big says "you people", he means the blacks, jews, asians, and all other children of the devil.
Bippity10
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4/20/2006  4:35 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"

i think when big says "you people", he means the blacks, jews, asians, and all other children of the devil.

I just hope that people will like me
Marv
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4/20/2006  4:39 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"

i think when big says "you people", he means the blacks, jews, asians, and all other children of the devil.

oh so he's using it like Ross Perot did? Okay, that's cool.
Bippity10
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4/20/2006  4:42 PM
"you people" are funny.
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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4/20/2006  4:44 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"

i think when big says "you people", he means the blacks, jews, asians, and all other children of the devil.

oh so he's using it like Ross Perot did? Okay, that's cool.

bipperot10?!?!?!
TMS
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4/20/2006  4:58 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

The world loves offensive players. But remember in golf if you hit the ball 350 yards off the tee but can't putt or chip you aren't making the tour. Our guys only do one thing well and none of them will sacrifice for others. Enough of this talent nonsense. Beleive it or not there were plenty of people that tried to calm the rest of the crowd down in their enthusiasm about the team after LB was hired. Too many thought we would be Phoenix East. Whether we won 22 games or 35 games, we still stink and our future would still be nil. It's not about the games won. That's just a mirage. It's about direction. We don't have any. Our coaching staff is trying to set a standard so that we can discover a direction and you guys want to abandon that to go back to a 35 win team that has no future.

I repeat, what is wrong with you people?

"You people?"

i think when big says "you people", he means the blacks, jews, asians, and all other children of the devil.


After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Pharzeone
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4/20/2006  5:56 PM
Waiting for Mods' reactions.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
BasketballJones
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4/20/2006  6:10 PM
Posted by djsunyc:



Man, now you're bringing back memories. What a nutjob!

https:// It's not so hard.
Marv
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4/20/2006  7:44 PM
The absolute nuttiest!! And for people who like to read faces, have a party with that one!! ^
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Did this year's team really have THAT much potential?
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