this was posted by kosmovitelli: (interesting read)
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The Knicks (the team and the organization) remind me a lot of the Nuggets of the 1998-2001 era.
When Dan Issel was at the helm, The Denver Nuggets had Nick Van Exel, Antonio Mc Dyess and Raef LaFrentz. The delusional fans here would call it an “incredibly talented team”. I didn’t even mention the Nuggets also had Chauncey Billups, Danny Fortson, Keon Clark, Ron Mercer.
Dan Issel was as dumb as Isiah Thomas, in 1998 he traded Battie and Lue for Nick Van Exel. Later in 1999 he resigned Nick Van Exel thinking he was one of the best point guards in the NBA. Take a look at what he said when he resigned him, Isiah Thomas probably used the same criterias when he traded for Marbury :
Issel has heard plenty from Van Exel's detractors, but remained firm in his desire to sign the sometimes-moody guard.
"I try to look at it objectively," said Issel. "When you look at his stats objectively, he's one of the best point guards in the league. He's one of the best scorers and he has one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios (3:1). He had a terrible year shooting the ball — and I'm sure he'd be the first to say so — but the thing I like about him is he (doesn't wilt under pressure). Nick makes the big shots.
"And he'll get better as we get better. He'll be a much better player when he doesn't feel he has to carry so much of the load."
Though new owner Donald Sturm will sign Van Exel's checks, he apparently is a little refuddled at how the NBA works in this regard.
"He said this is all foreign to me," Issel reported of his conversation with Sturm. [/b] "He said in the world I'm from, you get compensated after you've done something, not before."
http://www.bouldernews.com/sports/basketball/a218267a.html
Nick Van Exel often feuded with coach Del Harris in Los Angeles and the Lakers used to underachieve so Jerry West traded Nick for Battie and Lue, downgrade in terms of individual talent but huge upgrade in terms of team talent. Addition by substraction. Jerry West saw that Derek Fisher was a better fit at PG for the Lakers. Now look at what Dan Issel did : he traded for Nick Van Exel, resigned him (giving him a max contract) and he later traded Chauncey Billups thinking there was no room for him on the team as Nick Van Exel was the starting PG. He also traded for Ron Mercer. Just like Isiah Thomas, Dan Issel was infatuated with scorers who didn’t play a lick of defense. Like Isiah Thomas, when he was hired as GM, Dan Issel wanted to coach the team he inherited but he refrained from doing so and hired Mike D’Antoni as head coach. He later fired D’Antoni because he feuded with his star Van Exel. Instead of trading Van Exel, Issel opted to fire d’Antoni and took his head coach job thinking he could do better.
Now take a look at this article published when Mike D’Antoni was fired :
I knew he wanted to coach," D'Antoni said over the weekend. "Before he hired me he said, 'If I coach, will you be my assistant?' I said sure. And when it looked like Bill Laurie (the businessman whose group initially tried to buy the team from Ascent Communications) was going to get the team, I knew Dan was trying to coach. When that fell through (and billionaire Donald Sturm purchased the team), I thought it wouldn't happen until maybe the end of the year."
During the season, D'Antoni benched Van Exel on a couple of occasions. When Van Exel balked, D'Antoni says he went to Issel to get reassurance.
"Dan just wouldn't back me," D'Antoni said. "He read me the riot act. I knew after we didn't trade (Van Exel) that I was in trouble. Dan told me 'He's going to be here, and you better get used to it.' And to be truthful, Nick kind of turned around at the end of the year, and his attitude got better. But when (Issel) did the deal, I told Dan, 'This is not a great deal we're doing for the franchise.' But he kept saying Nick was a top-10 point guard."
It's Issel's prerogative to hire and fire whom he likes. That's his job. And he's under the gun, too; Sturm has made it clear to Issel that he expects big improvement after doling out big bucks for Van Exel, taking on the bulk of Antonio McDyess's deal and at least being willing to talk to Ron Mercer about an extension, though likely not at the inflated numbers Mercer is seeking.
This, of course, does D'Antoni no good. Most teams have filled whatever coaching vacancies they had by now, though D'Antoni will have $1.8 million to fall back on until he finds a gig. After years of waiting and coaching in Europe, D'Antoni might wind up back there. With a valuable lesson.
"I just didn't learn the politics," he says. Chuckling.
Back then, the same delusional Knicks fans who now praise Isiah Thomas, Stephon Marbury and blame Larry Brown would have said the Nuggets should be a top 5 team, should build around Van Exel and were one player away from being a championship contender. They would probably have asked for Mike D’Antoni’s head too.
Thankfully for Denver fans, the Nuggets were sold in the summer 2000, Stanley Kroenke became the new owner, he demoted Issel (who remained in the organization only as the head coach) and hired Kiki as his new GM in 2001. A few months later, Issel was forced to resign, Kiki made a salary dump trade, he dealt the so called “talents” of the team (Van Exel and LaFrentz) for soon expiring contracts and picks. He later went in full rebuilding mode and traded his remaining talent McDyess, a 1st rounder (Dallas) and a future 2nd rounder to the Knicks for basically Camby and a lottery pick. Two years later, the Nuggets made the playoffs for the 1st time since 1995. They will make the playoffs for the 3rd consecutive season and baring injuries look like a perennial playoff contender for years to come.
Kiki knew that the Nuggets were going nowhere with Van Exel as their PG and team leader. I couldn’t find the article where I read it but at the time Van Exel was resigned to a max contract by the Nuggets, I know that Jerry West couldn’t stop laughing in his office.
The way I see thing, Isiah Thomas is like Dan Issel, Donald Sturm is like James Dolan, Stephon Marbury is like Nick Van Exel.
I made that thread because I often read delusional fans here saying that the Knicks are a talented team and Larry Brown is the reason we suck. It’s our 5th consecutive losing season (the 3rd with Isiah Thomas as the GM and the 3rd with Marbury as the starting PG).
The 1st year, we were swept by the Nets because it was only Marbury’s first season with the Knicks, we lacked chemistry and Houston was injured. The 2nd year we only won 33 games because we had injuries and a rookie coach (Herb) as head coach. This year, we are one of the worst teams in the league because Larry Brown did a terrible job.
Where will it end? What excuses will the fans find next season?
Think about the Denver Nuggets, where would they be if they still had Van Exel, McDyess and Lafrentz? And Dan Issel?
Unfortunately for us, we can’t take the same route the Nuggets took, there is no chance the team will be sold in the near future.
So basically, right now, our only hope to get better is Larry Brown. If we’re lucky, Isiah Thomas will be forced out, Marbury and the other misfits will be traded next summer (if we can find a taker).
For those who petition for Larry Brown to be fired : just think how will the team will perform next season without LB. Firing Larry Brown is basically giving back the reigns of the team to Isiah, Marbury and the players. We all know how successful we were when Marbury was unleashed and played like Starbury : 33 wins. Think about how the Nuggets and Van Exel performed after they fired D'Antoni.
I don’t care if we give the Bulls a top 3 pick, I don’t mind being the worst team in the league if it means we’re laying the foundations to be a successful team and a perennial contender in the future : a team concept starting with defense, chemistry, leaders and adequate role players, a team policy starting with discipline, hard work and reward (pay market value, stop overpaying and stop paying reserves like starters).
Basically, either you fire both Isiah Thomas and Larry Brown or you let Larry Brown remain as head coach. Keeping Isiah Thomas as President/GM and firing Brown is a recipe for disaster.
If Larry Brown is fired, Marbury will probably play better the first 6 months to prove LB was wrong and the only thing holding him back , we will probably have a better record (35 wins), fans will get excited thinking we are back on track, Isiah Thomas will make another bonehead move thinking we are one player away from making the playoffs and then the season after we’ll rock bottom of the league once again.
I like Larry Brown a lot, I think he’s a very good coach even though I don’t like the way he handles the players situation in the press. I don’t mind if he’s replaced but I repeat, if he’s fired, Isiah Thomas absolutely has to go first. I hope the new GM will remember that line from Donald Sturm and use it as a policy : “you get compensated after you've done something, not before”.
4/12/2006 8:42 PM
(just jokes bonnie)