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Francis Trade Revisitted
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Bonn1997
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3/21/2006  12:50 PM
I supported the trade at the time, I but I now think there had to have been better uses of Penny's expiring contract (and Ariza). Since we apparently were willing to take back $50 mil in salary, we should have been able to do a trade taking back that same salary and getting a good young player who consistently plays hard or we should have been able to get a good draft pick. At least one team in the 9 to 14 range should have been willing to give up their pick in exchange for our Denver or SA pick if we took $50 mil off their hands. I'm not bashing Francis in this thread; I just don't think he (or Marbury) is what this team needs.
AUTOADVERT
NYKBocker
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3/21/2006  12:54 PM
I think it is a good trade. For what we gave up to get an all-star is pretty good. Just think of it as collecting assets.
TMS
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3/21/2006  1:01 PM
i liked it then & i still like it now, but only if we can trade Marbury, or use Francis in a deal to get a stud like KG in the offseason to play w/Steph.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
OasisBU
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3/21/2006  1:03 PM
I liked the trade - my problem is this:

Why do players who are good in other states SUCK when they come to NY? And this goes for Football, Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
TMS
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3/21/2006  1:14 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

I liked the trade - my problem is this:

Why do players who are good in other states SUCK when they come to NY? And this goes for Football, Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball.

there have been players who came to NY from other teams who blossomed here as well:
Charles Oakley, Marcus Camby, Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell, John Starks just to name a few in the past 20 years.

the problem right now is that every new player is walking into a volatile situation where there's no feeling of leadership or accountability from the top executives right down to the players themselves.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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3/21/2006  1:17 PM
What would you rather have on this team: Francis or someone like Hilton Armstrong or maybe Hibbert if he comes out this year if we had moved up in the draft?
SlimPack
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3/21/2006  1:40 PM
I think the trade was bad then, and I think it's bad now. Francis, to me, isn't really an asset. He's been very unmotivated ever since he and mobley were seperated, and is being put in a poor position to succeed by being played alongside marbury, and lineup flip flopper larry brown. I beleive all that will lower his value, just like it has to all of our other players. All players that play with larry brown at first, struggle and go threw a dip in their overall scoring production, which is why I think the francis trade was ill conceived. I dont understand what makes people think that we will be able to trade francis for more than what we paid to get him. If anything, the most probable outcome would be for his value to decrease, as he plays a role that he has never played before as a shooting guard, alongside a drive and kick point guard like marbury, and under a coach that stresses teamwork over individual play. although I suppose theres a chance that he might "get it" and become a larry type player like crawford reportedly has, but that takes time, and it wont happen by this summer, and based on what Ive seen from francis thus far, it probably wont happen ever.


[Edited by - slimpack on 03-21-2006 1:48 PM]
Bonn1997
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3/21/2006  1:43 PM
Posted by SlimPack:

I think the trade was bad then, and I think it's bad now. Francis, to me, isn't really an asset. [Edited by - slimpack on 03-21-2006 1:42 PM]

I agree. I don't think he's much of a trade asset and the opportunity cost (i.e., what we could have gotten for Ariza and our willingness to take back $50 mil in salary) was too high. I'd take a Hilton Armstrong or Hibbert any day over Francis, especially on this roster.
BRIGGS
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3/21/2006  1:44 PM
no this is a good trade
RIP Crushalot😞
Nalod
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3/21/2006  1:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:

I think the trade was bad then, and I think it's bad now. Francis, to me, isn't really an asset. [Edited by - slimpack on 03-21-2006 1:42 PM]

I agree. I don't think he's much of a trade asset and the opportunity cost (i.e., what we could have gotten for Ariza and our willingness to take back $50 mil in salary) was too high. I'd take a Hilton Armstrong or Hibbert any day over Francis, especially on this roster.

You make assumptions that are not realistic. How many games has stevie played?

Jury is way out on this one.





[Edited by - nalod on 03-21-2006 1:52 PM]
Bonn1997
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3/21/2006  1:54 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:

I think the trade was bad then, and I think it's bad now. Francis, to me, isn't really an asset. [Edited by - slimpack on 03-21-2006 1:42 PM]

I agree. I don't think he's much of a trade asset and the opportunity cost (i.e., what we could have gotten for Ariza and our willingness to take back $50 mil in salary) was too high. I'd take a Hilton Armstrong or Hibbert any day over Francis, especially on this roster.

You make assumptions that are not realistic.
So why would not one of the teams picking 9 to 15 be willing to give up their pick to trade down to BOTH 22 and 29 (our two picks) if we took $50 mil off their hands and threw in Ariza? It's probably more unrealistic to assume that every team in the 8 to 14 range would turn down that deal.

Swishfm3
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3/21/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by NYKBocker:

I think it is a good trade. For what we gave up to get an all-star is pretty good. Just think of it as collecting assets.


when you think about it like that....then yes it was a good trade....but I didn't really see a need for Francis (then or now)

I can only hope that this was just a small part of a bigger plan later down the road.
fishmike
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3/21/2006  2:01 PM
Francis has an unfriendly contract, but he's a solid player, he's proved to be coachable. He's had his baby moments but I think he's a guy that could work w/ Larry. There's also NO personality problems with Francis. I cant remember a player thats said they dont like or dont like playing with Steve Francis. Most people that have played with Marbury either point blank say they dont like him or simply that whoever they are playing with now is better.

We gave up ****, we got back an all star. This is what the Marbury trade SHOULD have been. Instead we also gave up what crappy picks and prospects we had, and took back a useless Penny to boot. The more time that goes by the more you can see how utterly raped Isiah got by Colangelo in that deal
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
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3/21/2006  2:09 PM
I still maintain it was a horrible trade.

*terrible economically
*greatly overrated player
*not what we needed on this squad
*way way overpaid

[Edited by - marv on 03-21-2006 2:09 PM]
Nalod
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3/21/2006  2:37 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:

I think the trade was bad then, and I think it's bad now. Francis, to me, isn't really an asset. [Edited by - slimpack on 03-21-2006 1:42 PM]

I agree. I don't think he's much of a trade asset and the opportunity cost (i.e., what we could have gotten for Ariza and our willingness to take back $50 mil in salary) was too high. I'd take a Hilton Armstrong or Hibbert any day over Francis, especially on this roster.

You make assumptions that are not realistic.
So why would not one of the teams picking 9 to 15 be willing to give up their pick to trade down to BOTH 22 and 29 (our two picks) if we took $50 mil off their hands and threw in Ariza? It's probably more unrealistic to assume that every team in the 8 to 14 range would turn down that deal.

Your very cavilear about taking back 50$million. Like whom? Lets get specific about players..
DarkKnicks
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3/21/2006  2:42 PM
I never liked the trade, but until we trade Francis or Marbury I will not kill Larry and Isiah for this one.
OldFan
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3/21/2006  10:19 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by OasisBU:

I liked the trade - my problem is this:

Why do players who are good in other states SUCK when they come to NY? And this goes for Football, Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball.

there have been players who came to NY from other teams who blossomed here as well:
Charles Oakley, Marcus Camby, Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell, John Starks just to name a few in the past 20 years.

the problem right now is that every new player is walking into a volatile situation where there's no feeling of leadership or accountability from the top executives right down to the players themselves.

No, Briefly, Not really, No, Yes. Charles fit in great and became more of a leader - but he was already doing his thing in Chicago. Marcus - had a good playoff run - other then that he only showed flashed. Allan - was still on the rise when he got here and he never became as good as expected. Latrell had better seasons before he got here. John blossomed in NY.

In general I think more players get worse then get better coming to NY with all the media coverage etc.

Also, once a player is under the NY microscope his flaws are much more apparent.
Rich
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3/21/2006  10:20 PM
I was against because of the cap ramifications, and still am.
holfresh
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3/21/2006  11:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I supported the trade at the time, I but I now think there had to have been better uses of Penny's expiring contract (and Ariza). Since we apparently were willing to take back $50 mil in salary, we should have been able to do a trade taking back that same salary and getting a good young player who consistently plays hard or we should have been able to get a good draft pick. At least one team in the 9 to 14 range should have been willing to give up their pick in exchange for our Denver or SA pick if we took $50 mil off their hands. I'm not bashing Francis in this thread; I just don't think he (or Marbury) is what this team needs.

i was wondering how long it would take you to bash Marbs...Wasn't long...
Bonn1997
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3/21/2006  11:19 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I supported the trade at the time, I but I now think there had to have been better uses of Penny's expiring contract (and Ariza). Since we apparently were willing to take back $50 mil in salary, we should have been able to do a trade taking back that same salary and getting a good young player who consistently plays hard or we should have been able to get a good draft pick. At least one team in the 9 to 14 range should have been willing to give up their pick in exchange for our Denver or SA pick if we took $50 mil off their hands. I'm not bashing Francis in this thread; I just don't think he (or Marbury) is what this team needs.

i was wondering how long it would take you to bash Marbs...Wasn't long...
Where did I bash Marbs? I simply want younger players on our team and I want him to play the rest of his prime on a team that can go deep in the playoffs. Whatever team he gets traded to if he's traded will be the team I root 2nd hardest for because I like Marbury and want him to succeed.

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