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If Jackie Butler Were In The Draft Where Would He Rank?
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misterearl
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3/16/2006  11:10 AM
Thank You

>> It's hard to say because (Jackie) would be getting more PT in college, and learning the game, so his value could be higher or lower than we might think.

Rich - you are indeed Jedi

THAT is the type of reasoned analytical thinking that would make this place more educational.

Jackie seems to be gaining confidence and even holding his head a bit higher.

At only 20, I like his potential to grow even more

In my humble opinion, well done.
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misterearl
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3/16/2006  11:13 AM
djsunyc - do you think Nate has the ability to harness his energy and become a consistent guard worthy of trust?

Not that I want to change him, he should be free to dance.

Perhaps the question is whether Larry and the Knicks live with the positive and negative Nate's daredevil-ishness.

I say let Nate do his thing

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 03-16-2006 11:14 AM]
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fishmike
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3/16/2006  11:17 AM
Posted by misterearl:
I only care about the franchise getting better.
me too. Thats all I care about. Part of the reason I want a GM that can make that happen because this one sets us back a year everytime he picks up the phone.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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3/16/2006  11:18 AM
Posted by misterearl:

djsunyc - do you think Nate has the ability to harness his energy and become a consistent guard worthy of trust?

Not that I want to change him, he should be free to dance.

Perhaps the question is whether Larry and the Knicks live with the positive and negative Nate's daredevil-ishness.

I say let Nate do his thing

i think lb likes nate. unfortunately, we have $50 mil in front of him per year. where does that leave him? plus, he has some nice value so chances are, he might get traded. it would be a shame but it's probably going to happen.

with that said, nate has a long way to go. he has this great energy and passion for the game but he still thinks shoot first and is still very playground. but i've seen improvements in that area as well as exhibited by some nice sound fundamental passes yesterday.

lb CAN coach him and i believe he CAN harness it. it all depends on where he falls on the totem pole b/c at the end of the day, he's only a 5'8 guard that will never be a starter. we have two max players and two other relatively young guys in front of him. the bigger question is will he be coached in ny or not?
djsunyc
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3/16/2006  11:20 AM
btw, marv said it before but nate could be a poor man's ben gordon. if he's allowed to come in and just create havoc, then he could flourish in that role. but that's won't happen under lb UNLESS we have a solid starting 5 that can play defense and share the ball. if they can do that, then having nate as a 6th man could work.
VDesai
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3/16/2006  11:26 AM
I compare him favorably to Sweetney, better size, less polish. You can see with his effort level that he'd be a coach's fave on that level and have every opportunity to produce. With 2-3 years of college experience he could've been putting up nightly double-doubles. Late lottery doesn't really sound off to me.
misterearl
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3/16/2006  11:29 AM
>>this one sets us back a year everytime he picks up the phone.

Patently false fish.mike and you know it. The extra draft picks would not be here if not for the dealings of Mr Thomas.

You really have THAT much a problem with Nate, Jamal, Qyntel, David Lee, Channing Frye and Jackie Butler?

C'mon, ease up.
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fishmike
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3/16/2006  11:46 AM
Posted by misterearl:

>>this one sets us back a year everytime he picks up the phone.

Patently false fish.mike and you know it. The extra draft picks would not be here if not for the dealings of Mr Thomas.

You really have THAT much a problem with Nate, Jamal, Qyntel, David Lee, Channing Frye and Jackie Butler?

C'mon, ease up.

I never said I did. I said I have a problem with the $100mm in veterans with horrible contracts that nobody wants playing in front of them. You always seem to come back to this when all logic fails.

Why ease up? I'm passionate about the Knicks. I want them to win and be a group I can be proud to be a fan of. I'm not now, its embarassing. I can be patient losing and watching us build with young guys.

Isiah's last 4 transations: Jerome James, Eddie Curry, Jalen Rose, Steve Francis. Keep telling yourself we are rebuilding.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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3/16/2006  12:36 PM
Rebuild, schmebuild

Isiah has a proven eye for young talent.

If Al Harrington is as committed to New York as he sounds in the papers then Isiah will find a way. Not because I am riding his jock, but because he has worked to make the franchise beter by being aggressive.

He'll also find the next two yoots if the draft picks are not dealt in the process.

Isiah and Larry will determine what to do with Marbury and everyone who's not down with the program. I can live with that over the next four months. By July, it will be time for Summer League and the program will move on.

Besides, I will never pull for the Knicks to lose, just to prove a point about player salaries
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djsunyc
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3/16/2006  12:42 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Rebuild, schmebuild

Isiah has a proven eye for young talent.

If Al Harrington is as committed to New York as he sounds in the papers then Isiah will find a way. Not because I am riding his jock, but because he has worked to make the franchise beter by being aggressive.

He'll also find the next two yoots if the draft picks are not dealt in the process.

Isiah and Larry will determine what to do with Marbury and everyone who's not down with the program. I can live with that over the next four months. By July, it will be time for Summer League and the program will move on.

Besides, I will never pull for the Knicks to lose, just to prove a point about player salaries

earl, do you feel more comfortable now that lb is here and involved in the decision making process in terms of the roster? or were you comfortable with isiah going at it alone (for all intent and purposes) like he has been?
misterearl
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3/16/2006  1:03 PM
djsunyc - the Knicks as a franchise have fallen victim to multiple agendas throughout the last three decades. The same front office espionage that forced out Ernie Grunfeld, forced out Red Holzman. It spun out Don Nelson, Bob Hill, Stu Jackson and John McLeod.

The Knicks as a franchise desperately needed Dolan and Mills to slow down the revolving door.

I like the fact that Larry Brown and Isiah DON'T need to agree on everything, but seem to respect each other's basketball acumen and share the same intense desire to win.

Note Isiah has not taken sides (at least in public) on the Marbury issue. He's allowing his coach to do his job on the floor and in practice. That is a good sign.

Their work relationship has the potential to pay dividends for the franchise - if their first off-season together can produce decisions they can both endorse.

This marriage is not a year old.
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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3/16/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by misterearl:
Isiah has a proven eye for young talent.I agree 100%, and if you told me after Isiah was hired that the plan was going to be get away from the overpaid players with bad contracts, use the draft, get young tough guys in here willing to play hard then I would say Isiah is a good fit for the job.

Problem is Isiah's eye for OLD talent is whats ruining this franchise and has ripped away our options for the next 3 years

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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3/16/2006  1:36 PM
fish.mike - you may not agree with the options but no one thought Clarence Weatherspoon could be dealt either.

The Knicks options for the next 3 years are not "ripped away" as you claim. I say "balderdash" (I don't know what it means, I just like the word)

Isiah and Larry will wheel and deal into next season with this experience under their belts and the franchise will be better off.

"It takes money to make money"

Stay tuned
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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3/16/2006  1:48 PM
not true at all. I never had any doubt at all that Spoon could be dealt, and I have no doubt that Marbury or whoever else can be dealt. Only problem is you take back often even more crap than you give up. We traded Spoon and got back Moochie. We traded Eisley and got back Penny. Nobody wanted Knight or Shandon so they got bought out (Shandon is still on the books).

Ive been tuned from the get go. Its funny Earl. Ever know someone in an abusive relationship? You watch them continually get crapped on and wonder why they cant see. EVERYONE else can see but them. They just say stuff like he really loves me deep down, this is only a phase or its going to get better.

Sounds familiar?

Didnt think so

http://m-w.com/dictionary/denial
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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3/16/2006  1:59 PM
fish.mike - so what do you propose we do with our abused Knicks hearts ....

switch teams to a new NBA relationship...

... or hope that the leadership can get on the same page?

Unless you think Isiah and Larry's brains working together are insufficient ....(?)

I will NEVER root for them to lose.

I can't get with that.

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 03-16-2006 1:59 PM]
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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3/16/2006  2:21 PM
me neither... I wont even boo. I understand 100% people that do but I have never and will never boo a player wearing my uni.

While I will never root for the losing part of me is happy. When we had Chaney people blame the coach. I said it was the players. When we Lenny people blamed him. I said it was the players. People blamed Herb, I said it was the players. Now we have a HOF with a winning record at every stop he's been at, and people still blame the coach. Its a great situation because we are desperate for change in my opinion and only pain brings change. IMO we have to look at these players and they have to look at themselves.

IMO Isiah's real blunder has been having ZERO balance on this roster. There are no true dirty work tough guys. Maybe Lee and Butler one day but those guys are prospects and this roster was built to win now.

What are we to do? Keep bitching. Keep sending the pissy emails to the garden and to our beat writers. Dont buy the jersey's. Dont go to the games. Eventually they will realize this business model is a failure and do something about it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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3/16/2006  9:25 PM
>>IMO Isiah's real blunder has been having ZERO balance on this roster. There are no true dirty work tough guys.

fish.mike - I disagree totally

You want to torch every move Isiah has made like he is a leper. No problem.

I would submit that Lee and Butler ARE blue collar. The fact they are young only adds to their appeal NOT detract from it.

Qyntel Woods has some grit to his game but you hate his past. You don't dunk in the traffic without having some edge to your game.

Quentin Richardson is a battler but he's either too slow or doesn't have his head screwed on to your approval, right?

Malik Rose is blue collar but can't shoot a lick. Well, you can't always get what you want but there ARE guys who will battle for a loose ball.

Hell, Nate is as rugged and hard rock as they come. You may hate his antics but HOW can a 5'8 tasmanian devil who will dive into the paint with reckless abandon on both ends NOT be considered a blue collar kinda guy?

Me thinketh thou stereotypeth too much




[Edited by - MisterEarl on 03-16-2006 9:26 PM]
once a knick always a knick
simrud
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3/16/2006  10:01 PM
I thik the problem on this team is this:

Stephon Marbury
Steve Francis
Mo Taylor
Malik Rose
Jerome James

If these 5 werent on the team, I could handle having Curry and Jalen Rose on it, but w/out them it would be even better.

I love Frye, Nate, Lee, Woods, Butler, and I can abide by Q caue at least he tries hard no matter how much he sucks. Its the coaches fault if he plays. But the overpaid primadonas need to go.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TMS
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3/16/2006  11:10 PM
i don't think Mo T & Malik belong on that list... while they're both definitely overpaid, they're not primadonnas in the same sense that you can apply to Marbury & Francis... James is just plain lazy.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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3/16/2006  11:14 PM
Earl.. none of those guys can defend at the NBA level. Isiah added a ton of veteran guys and none of them fit together. For a guy that played on one of the toughest teams ever you would have though he would have gotten some guys like that. Dont tell me a CBA player, scrap heap guy and a couple of late draft picks are Isiah's idea of balancing this $100mm plus roster. If thats the case the only stereotyping is by you.

Wake up and smell the garden. It stinks and Isiah has built it.

Whats interesting is now LB appears to be totally in charge of personel, and I'm not sure thats a good thing. Time will tell
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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If Jackie Butler Were In The Draft Where Would He Rank?
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