Posted by TMS:

Posted by bobs3304:

^ Seattles not desperate to give up Ray Ray.


Ray Allen is NOT Steve Francis.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 03-03-2006 5:12 PM]

Francis is more durable, 2 years younger, his contract expires a year earlier & they have comparable talent... i'm not talking Stephon Marbury for Allen Iverson here.

You seriously think Ray and Stevie have "comparable talent??"

I think Ray is by far the better talent. What do you see in Stevie that I'm missing?

Posted by gunsnewing:

Ray > Francis

its not even close

Seattle has Ridnour and Francis doesn't fit at all there. To completely beat it into the ground, Allen is better both offensively and defensively - much better shot, more of a leader, can create of the dribble and move away from the ball. Seattle is more likely to throw away Lewis because of the uncertainty - in other words, potentially losing him for nothin. That, of course, is where my trades come in.

Posted by TMS:


i guess Steve Francis can't do that, huh? & he can't move away from the ball either? wow... just wow.

Hello. Don't get so upset. If your deal was OK'd by the Sonics (which it wouldn't), we'd both be on board. Francis's shot is a huge liability and again, Luke Ridnour (who many on this Knick fan site think is better than Marbury), hasn't been traded. Francis is a better rebounder and his first step is quicker. He's also turnover prone (check last night) and his height is a big liability if he's playing 2-guard.

To make this point again, Ray Allen's defense is significantly better than Francis, to the effect that they let him play Kobe one on one quite a bit. (TMS, if you say otherwise, that is beyond absurd). He goes on top of screens, stays with his man more often than not, gets back to his man off double teams. And he's getting 10 more points a game at a higher percentage than Francis. Wow.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 03-04-2006 12:56 PM]

Posted by TMS:

no one's getting upset... i'm stating my opinion & ur stating urs... ur basing your estimations based on Francis' career worst year, & Ray Allen's best... i'm basing my estimations based on their overall career #'s... what's a more telling comparison of their overall talent level to you? let's see how SEA will feel if Ray's health issues & advancing age lead to decreasing production in the coming year.

btw, Kobe scored 34 on Ray Allen the 1 time they played this year on 47% shooting, went 4 for 5 from 3 pt. range, 6 of 8 from the FT line, with 5 assists & 2 TO's... the 4 for 5 from 3 pt. range stat is pretty telling of loose D being played by your boy... doesn't seem like Ray Allen d'ing him up did much of anything that game but contribute to a 12 point loss.

look, i'm not even trying to say Francis is better than Ray Allen... i'm not saying Ray Allen's a scrub... i just don't agree w/u in your estimation of Ray in another class... they're both second tier star players in my eyes.

Regardless of which stats you prefer, Steve has never and WILL never average 25 points a game. And, although I agree that he is underachieving this year, his field goal percentage is likely to dip lower if he assumes a larger role in the offense. His turnovers are always among the worst in the league. And I'm not particularly impressed with his ability to run an offense. In other words - bad decision making, which goes hand-in-hand with the turnovers. Bottom line - your man Francis is at 16 ppg 6 apg on 43% with 3.3 turnovers and a deal that extends through 09. Talentwise, Francis is a good piece and crappier deals (see Vince) have happened but again, with Ridnour, and a cap-conscious owner, what exactly is Seattle's incentive?

Although you seem stuck on the fact that Allen's production will drop, he's having a career year, while Francis (who, mind you, is no spring chicken) has been getting worse perrenially. Both career stats and the most recect year have useful information, but, in this case, overall talent doesn't matter as much if the player doesn't fit a need or even a position. Realistically, Allen could be shopped - I disagree more with the deal for Francis. To me, he is a turnover-prone point guard with limited passing and poor shooting skills - who would end up playing out of position in Seattle.