[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

reasons we have slipped
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
diehard97
Posts: 20008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/11/2002
Member: #310
8/11/2002  5:23 PM
in 1996 and 1997 our team was strong. ewing, oak, starks in their prime, new additions, johnson, houston, childs, etc. new head coach van gundy. we were strong, that team got into that fight, the following year ewing got hurt, starks and oak got worse, we retooled.

in 1999 we got spree, camby, and thomas. ewing was still good, houston and johnson were now leaders. childs' defense and ward's too was there.

reasons we've slipped since 1999 and 2000, and even 2001:

- johnson's retirement: the guy was a true leader. he could also get you 12 points but he was a great defender. he was one of our true knicks at the time.

- ewing's departure and then trading rice, still a good player, for trash.

- van gundy's retirement.

- the emergence of other stars in the east. iverson, tmac, kidd, carter, pierce, walker. i'm glad we got mcdyess. he's up there in that category.

people under estimate antonio mcdyess and the importance of a head coach. if tom thibodeau were head coach, i'd say we're fine the way we are. i still believe he'll become head coach this year.
AUTOADVERT
martin
Posts: 69164
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
8/13/2002  5:39 PM
Posted by diehard97:

in 1996 and 1997 our team was strong. ewing, oak, starks in their prime, new additions, johnson, houston, childs, etc. new head coach van gundy. we were strong, that team got into that fight, the following year ewing got hurt, starks and oak got worse, we retooled.

in 1999 we got spree, camby, and thomas. ewing was still good, houston and johnson were now leaders. childs' defense and ward's too was there.

reasons we've slipped since 1999 and 2000, and even 2001:

- johnson's retirement: the guy was a true leader. he could also get you 12 points but he was a great defender. he was one of our true knicks at the time.

- ewing's departure and then trading rice, still a good player, for trash.

- van gundy's retirement.

- the emergence of other stars in the east. iverson, tmac, kidd, carter, pierce, walker. i'm glad we got mcdyess. he's up there in that category.

people under estimate antonio mcdyess and the importance of a head coach. if tom thibodeau were head coach, i'd say we're fine the way we are. i still believe he'll become head coach this year.

I think the key was Johnson. I hated JVG for playing Larry so much in his last years - I thought he was taking time away from other player - but it was truly clear last year that leadership and low post presence were sorely lacking.

I'm not sure if I would say the loss of either Ewing or Rice were key moments. I mean, really, if those players had stayed, would anything be dramatically different?
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
nyvector16
Posts: 21308
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/9/2001
Member: #130
USA
8/14/2002  10:47 AM
If Ewing had stayed we would have never gotten Rice (which is a good thing). THen his contract would have expired. And we'd be without Eisley and Anderson now...
OasisBU
Posts: 24138
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 6/18/2002
Member: #257
USA
8/14/2002  11:40 AM
We have slipped because of bad management decisions and I know I will take some heat for this post, but I think it goes all the way back to the day Pat Riley left the Knicks. This is New York City - and as much as I respect and like Van Gundy, he is not a showtime coach and that is something this city needs. Remember the excitement when Riley came to NY? And our team was tough as a result of hard work, good coaching, and fantastic front office work to create a hardcore group that would go far (too bad MJ and Chicago had a good deal too). But since Riley left, poor decisions have plagued this team - first, no showtime presence on the sidelines. Van G is a good guy, a great coach, but has no presence. Then the players. We all know what happened there. Now cablevision is putting a cap on the spending, we are screwed financially because we are way over the cap anyway, and Layden is a bit boring when it comes to dreaming up fantastic trades. It is going to take some time to make this team better and I think that part has already taken a major step this summer - but Chaney isnt our man. I dont care if he hasnt proved himself yet, he isnt showtime and never will be. Get a better coach, find a decent center, and a solid PG and I think the core of this team is solid enough to make a run for it. Unfortunately we dont have the big fella in his prime - otherwise we would be NASTY.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
BigSm00th
Posts: 24504
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/9/2001
Member: #178
USA
8/14/2002  11:58 AM
Who cares about a showtime coach, the fans go to see the players play, not to see the coaches coach. I thought JVG was the perfect fit for this team.
#Knickstaps
Vmart
Posts: 31800
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
8/14/2002  12:01 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

Who cares about a showtime coach, the fans go to see the players play, not to see the coaches coach. I thought JVG was the perfect fit for this team.

Unfortunately he didn't think that.
diehard97
Posts: 20008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/11/2002
Member: #310
8/14/2002  12:10 PM
>>>But since Riley left, poor decisions have plagued this team - first, no showtime presence on the sidelines. Van G is a good guy, a great coach, but has no presence. Then the players. We all know what happened there. Now cablevision is putting a cap on the spending, we are screwed financially because we are way over the cap anyway, and Layden is a bit boring when it comes to dreaming up fantastic trades. It is going to take some time to make this team better and I think that part has already taken a major step this summer - but Chaney isnt our man. I dont care if he hasnt proved himself yet, he isnt showtime and never will be. Get a better coach, find a decent center, and a solid PG and I think the core of this team is solid enough to make a run for it. Unfortunately we dont have the big fella in his prime - otherwise we would be NASTY.<<<

think about what you just said. showtime is for pretty boys in los angeles. NYC is blue collar, not showtime. that crap is for run and gun guys, not NYC. van gundy and riley are the same exact kinds of coaches, except pat riley uses gel in his hair and goes tanning like a pretty boy. van gundy doesn't care about that. he's more intense on the game. he had no presence? how about every player saying they wouldn't wanna play for another coach other than him? ewing told phil jackson to keep his ass in chicago. how about game 6 against the heat at halftime trailing by 18 points? i wonder what kind of speach JVG made. how about sweeping toronto after they killed us during the season and talk **** before the playoffs? how about making the finals as the 8th seed? or getting the 2001 knicks to win 48 games. we could have easily won 53-54 games that year and our team WAS NOT THAT GOOD AT ALL. how about getting the 1998 knicks to win 43 games without ewing, who was still good. CHRIS MILLS was our 2nd option for crying out loud. that team, w/o LJ and Ewing beat the heat in game 5. how about that?

how about getting a team with a new core to win 57 games in 1996 and 1997? how about winning 50 games in 2000? how about being 3rd all-time in knicks win list and 2nd all-time in knicks winning percentage?? how about breaking up fights?

no presense? what the hell are you smoking? we need that again. promote tom thibodeau.

the reasons we have slipped is because of bad trades contract wise and the emergence of other young talent. our team hasn't slipped that much but TMac or paul pierce or vince carter wasn't as nearly as good as they are now in 1999 and 2000.
OasisBU
Posts: 24138
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 6/18/2002
Member: #257
USA
8/14/2002  12:11 PM
Well it isnt really that they have these high profiles - its more so that they have proven success in their history. Do you think Chaney should be the man for this team? I just dont agree with that. And I dont disagree that Van G was a great coach - but he burned out. I guess maybe showtime wasnt the word I was looking for, more like experienced at WINNING. To win you need a leader, someone who knows what they are doing. While we need it on the court in our players, we also need someone who can command the team from the sidelines and give a sense of direction - I just dont see that leadership on this team right now. I would be very happy if Chaney can prove me wrong.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
diehard97
Posts: 20008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/11/2002
Member: #310
8/14/2002  12:15 PM
pat riley is a great coach. 2nd all-time wins, best winning percentage of all-time too, i believe. (or is that jackson?) but van gundy clearly got his guys to play harder. we beat showed we should have won and deserved to win every year:

1997: up 3-1 in series, only lost b/c of no ewing, houston, LJ, starks, oak, ward, etc etc.

1998: was down 0-1, then 1-2, and came back to win on their floor as the 7th seed, without ewing or larry johnson.

1999: was the 8th seed, killed them in Game 1 and in Game 3, marked by a 32-2 run in Game 3. beat them on their home floor once again.

2000: this year the heat should have been more prepare and once again, JVG out-coached that tanned pretty boy pat riley. should have won game 3 if it weren't for a BS call. (any shot over the backboard DOES NOT COUNT. ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE LEAGUE). game 6 we were down 18 at halftime at won. and game 7 again we beat them again as the lower seed again on their homefloor..... again.

no presense? please.
OasisBU
Posts: 24138
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 6/18/2002
Member: #257
USA
8/14/2002  12:17 PM
Posted by diehard97:

>>>But since Riley left, poor decisions have plagued this team - first, no showtime presence on the sidelines. Van G is a good guy, a great coach, but has no presence. Then the players. We all know what happened there. Now cablevision is putting a cap on the spending, we are screwed financially because we are way over the cap anyway, and Layden is a bit boring when it comes to dreaming up fantastic trades. It is going to take some time to make this team better and I think that part has already taken a major step this summer - but Chaney isnt our man. I dont care if he hasnt proved himself yet, he isnt showtime and never will be. Get a better coach, find a decent center, and a solid PG and I think the core of this team is solid enough to make a run for it. Unfortunately we dont have the big fella in his prime - otherwise we would be NASTY.<<<

think about what you just said. showtime is for pretty boys in los angeles. NYC is blue collar, not showtime. that crap is for run and gun guys, not NYC. van gundy and riley are the same exact kinds of coaches, except pat riley uses gel in his hair and goes tanning like a pretty boy. van gundy doesn't care about that. he's more intense on the game. he had no presence? how about every player saying they wouldn't wanna play for another coach other than him? ewing told phil jackson to keep his ass in chicago. how about game 6 against the heat at halftime trailing by 18 points? i wonder what kind of speach JVG made. how about sweeping toronto after they killed us during the season and talk **** before the playoffs? how about making the finals as the 8th seed? or getting the 2001 knicks to win 48 games. we could have easily won 53-54 games that year and our team WAS NOT THAT GOOD AT ALL. how about getting the 1998 knicks to win 43 games without ewing, who was still good. CHRIS MILLS was our 2nd option for crying out loud. that team, w/o LJ and Ewing beat the heat in game 5. how about that?

how about getting a team with a new core to win 57 games in 1996 and 1997? how about winning 50 games in 2000? how about being 3rd all-time in knicks win list and 2nd all-time in knicks winning percentage?? how about breaking up fights?

no presense? what the hell are you smoking? we need that again. promote tom thibodeau.

the reasons we have slipped is because of bad trades contract wise and the emergence of other young talent. our team hasn't slipped that much but TMac or paul pierce or vince carter wasn't as nearly as good as they are now in 1999 and 2000.

Presence has to do with confidence, appearance, etc.. Van Gundy was short and had no presence. That doesnt mean he wasnt a good coach - I said he was, he just wasnt the man who could take us all the way, granted Ewing was hurt in 99 but the Spurs were tough. You say all these great things about Van Gundy and I agree with you on them, but also remember the way he left this team - he didnt leave here as a winner he quit. I dont know anyway you can praise that fact.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
diehard97
Posts: 20008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/11/2002
Member: #310
8/14/2002  12:20 PM
yes i agree chaney isn't the man for this team. van gundy was. he's gone so i say get that back and hire tom thibodeau, the next riley/VG type. we can't go out and higher the greatest coach ever. the greatest coach ever could be some guy you've never heard of. VG was expericence. he was an assistant long before riley came here. well not long before but before. jeff was here in 1989. 1989, that's 13 years ago. 13 years ago jeff van gundy was hired by the knicks.

he was here when riley came and left. in 1994 when we made the finals, we reggie nailed 25 in the 4th, when starks went 2-18, when reggie score 8 points in 8 seconds, when jordan went double nickel, when starks did "the dunk" and THEN he was promoted to coach.

he was here 7 years before being promoted. tom thibodeau's been here since 1996. i say if we start off bad this year, FIRE CHANEY AND HIRE HIM. thibodeau's never been a head coach, only an assistant in some other low profile teams. JVG thought he'd be the coach when he resigned but they gave it to chaney.

we aren't going to compete year in and year out for a ring like in the DAYS OF RILEY and the early days of JVG but with thibodeau, maybe that'll light a fire under mcdyess' ass.
diehard97
Posts: 20008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/11/2002
Member: #310
8/14/2002  12:24 PM
he quit? we just won 5 in a row before he quit i believe. we were rolling. he wuit after the team's best game in milwaukee. we were 10-9 when he quit. he didn't quit, he resigned. he wanted to "spend more time with his family" after 9/11. whats wrong with that? i wouldn't have done that i would have stayed until the year was over but come on.

- houston was given 100 million.
- anderson and eisley were given as much as frigging paul pierce and vince carter and were signed until 2007.
- spoon was signed for 27 mil.
- camby was hurt again.
- johnson retired.
- jackson was a year older
- sprewell was bitching
- and 2 miles from MSG the twin towers collapsed.

talk about a bad summer. i don't blame him.
nwny
Posts: 20285
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/8/2002
Member: #284
8/14/2002  11:11 PM
Posted by diehard97:

ewing told phil jackson to keep his ass in chicago.
Yeah, Pat was never that smart was he!
nwny
Posts: 20285
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/8/2002
Member: #284
8/14/2002  11:15 PM
Posted by diehard97:

ewing told phil jackson to keep his ass in chicago.
Yeah, Pat was never that smart was he!
« Reply To Topic
reasons we have slipped
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy