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How quickly we forget...LB not too long ago..
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:08 PM
Does any of this ring a bell (briggs, evil, martin, fish, etc.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/brown-olympics-090204.shtml

Olympics: Larry Brown didn't work wonders

By Craig Neslage / Sept 2, 2004
The Olympics are over, and some events went according to plan for USA gold medal aspirations. The unbeatable womens softball team won a third straight gold, breaking 18 Olympic records in the process. The US took home some surprise gold, including womens gymnastics.

And then there's men's basketball.

Including the exhibition games, the guys' U.S. Olympic basketball team lost four times on their way to a bronze medal. A highly publicized disaster, the blame had to be placed somewhere. Some belongs on the shoulders of Larry Brown and the coaching staff.

There is no question in anyone's mind, including the opponents of the US team, that we had the most talent. The squad had more game than EA Sports. Here's what happened: no defense, especially behind the 3-point arc, and no pure shooters to combat the zone D. And this despite the fact that the three-point line was much closer and we had strong defensive players like Richard Jefferson and Tim Duncan?

For starters, coach Brown focused way too much on getting production from Duncan. The Spurs big man was neutralized by tough zone D and phantom foul calls. There were way too many times when you saw Brown, after a foul was called on Duncan, looking like his best soldier died. I dont think I'm the only one who remembers seeing Brown with his hands over his head, like he's bracing for the impact of losing Duncan. Hey, Larry, you have 11 other players who are either all-stars or going to be soon. It was argued Duncan was the only true center, though, and therefore Brown emphasized his importance. Well, this is not the NBA, and true centers are not as crucial. Of the 12 teams in the competition, only Lithuania and China had a traditional back-to-the-basket center like the US.

What the US needed was an athletic team to respond to the high screen and roll - the play that every team ran against the United States easier than Sunday morning. It seemed the American players kept falling back into NBA-style defense of giving up the long 3 as opposed to a lay-up. The problem is that the international teams run the high screen and roll to get the open three. The logical conclusion is that Brown did not emphasize getting out on those shooters instead of stopping the screeners break to the hoop. Why did we never see a lineup like Amare Stoudemire, Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade, with the size to get rebounds and the athleticism to jump out on the screen and cover the shooter and create turnovers? Then, running the break, the US gets nasty. When LeBron got to the open floor he moved faster than Justin Gatlin in the 100 meters. Unfortunately, Brown kept him off-track and on the bench. the US enough opportunities to use their superior skills.

The offense had its problems too, often blamed on the lack of shooting. But this team can shoot from 20 feet 5 inches, more than 3 feet closer than the 23 feet 9 inches NBA distance. So, what was the problem? Confidence. Brown tried to play an inside-out game, getting the ball into the post and Duncan on the wing. They should have been attacking the middle of the zone, where a 6'11" player like Odom could shine with 14 foot jumpers. Then, the collapse of the D would open up jumpers for player like Iverson, Marbury, and Anthony, who can shoot wide open shots inside 20 feet when confident.

Instead, we saw Duncan getting crushed in the paint like a protester at the Republican National Convention, and shooters with no confidence and guys like Jefferson trying to drive right up into the zone. That's like trying to fend off a shark by swimming into its mouth. It doesn't work.

So, when it was all over the US finished with the bronze, the dark meat on the Olympic turkey.

Blame the coach just as much as the actual players.

RVHOSS - It's like our current season...explain to me again why we are giving him a free pass?
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nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:13 PM
It's not all about talent! It's about players performing. There wasn't one player on that team that could make an open jumpshot... not one! Just ask Sarunas Jaskivicous who said that the US had no business winning becuase they didn't have the players to win. Let me find the quote.
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:13 PM
and another...you guys that are in denial need to stop looking past the real problem...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/oconnor/2004-08-17-oconnor-brown_x.htm

Brown needs to take some of the blame
ATHENS — Larry Brown was at it again, playing the blame game before a live mike. His team had just taken out the hosting Greeks, and still he moved to criticize the USA Basketball selection committee for dealing him a team that could not throw the ball in the water off the deck of the Queen Mary 2.

Only there was one hitch in Brown's latest back-door play. He had a say in the makeup of this roster, a considerable say. When Rod Thorn, committee member, was asked before the Americans' 77-71 victory why the last spot on the team went to Emeka Okafor, and not a desperately needed outside shooter, this is what Thorn had to say: "The coaches wanted Okafor. At the time they felt that without Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand and Kenyon (Martin), we didn't have enough big players."

Thorn was asked if some committee members wanted a shooter with that final choice. "Yes," he said. "We looked at Michael Redd, Wally Szczerbiak and Brent Barry, guys like that."

But Brown and his staff went with a big college kid who can't get off the United States bench. Brown and his staff neglected their most obvious need, and now have a team that's taken 45 three-pointers and made seven.

"Believe it or not," Brown said, "I think we'll make an outside shot sometime in this tournament."

Believe it or not, Brown should've been smart enough to sign up a player who can make one.

But in Larry Legend's world, the head coach is never culpable. Brown made a dreadful choice in limiting LeBron James to 11 minutes against the Greeks, a choice that nearly made the U.S. 0-2, this after James had established himself as the best player on the floor.

In the second quarter, LeBron dunked. LeBron dove onto the floor to earn a jump ball. LeBron dunked. LeBron stole the ball and dunked. LeBron scored after Stephon Marbury stole the ball.

Then Brown dunked LeBron. With the U.S. up 31-19, Brown benched the Rookie of the Year after he became the first American player in two games to breathe life into his team.

"We're trying to entertain sometimes rather than just play," Brown said. LeBron had preened a bit — he dramatically flew open his hands — after one of his dunks, and 17 seconds later he was gone until late in the third. The preening wasn't tantamount to the wretched displays at the '94 world championships. It sure wasn't as embarrassing as Brown's decision to chase a ref off the court in Sydney. "I contributed and we won," said James, who made five of his six shots. "I can never be disappointed in my minutes."

The kid was diplomatic, but his body language on the bench betrayed his true emotions. James even drained a jump shot early in the fourth quarter to give the Americans a six-point lead and — voila — Brown inexplicably removed him 24 seconds later, after the rookie picked up his first foul. "No, I'm not happy with the shot selection," Brown said. "I thought sometimes we shot too quickly....We're open all over the place, but there's a reason why we're open."

The reason is simple: everyone here knows the American's can't shoot the way it seems every other team can shoot. "Normally, they do have shooters," Puerto Rico's Jose Ortiz said. But his team's strategy in the opening game was as obvious as the U.S. incompetence. "We were all saying, 'Let them shoot from the outside,' " said Puerto Rican guard Bobby Joe Hatton.

Brown barely escaped the Greek sharpshooters, and then started taking his own sharp shots at the very selection committee members — Thorn, Billy King, etc. — who sat in the stands looking as if they were about to take a plunge from the Acropolis.

"Other teams accept (their roles) a lot better than our team would, and that's something we've got to be really careful when selecting our team," Brown said. "To find role players in our environment is the way to go, but it's not the way we've been making teams."

Brown would've made this team better by asking for an NBA shooter rather than a UConn post man. But this is no time to be crying over the process, anyway. Despite all the no-shows, Brown was given the best player in the world (Tim Duncan), and the best athletes.
It's time for him to shut up and win.



RVHOSS - How quickly we forget...now it's the players and the GM...it can't be Brown...can it?
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bigbeast
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2/26/2006  10:15 PM
Great post. I forgot about that article and it is so dead on. I'm sure the Brown supporters will waste maybe one sentence acknowledging that Teflon-Brown has some blame. Then they will wax-poetic and unfold a 5 pgh essay of all of Isiahs follies.

I'm not saying Isiah doesn't take some of this blame. But for crying out loud, Brown is just as guilty if not more for this horrible season.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-26-2006 10:17 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:17 PM
As you can see nyk4ever (or should I say, nykwhenwinning) brown chose not to have a shooter...

the coach must adapt. If the coach continues to bench players for a statement, they won't perform.

Let me read you that roster again.
Richard Jefferson, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Amare Stoud and Tim Duncan.

And they Lost as bad as the knicks are losing now...tell me you weren't pissed at brown.

You can lead a fan to water, but you can't make him THINK!

Lenny got ushered out of the building like last years runaway slave.

Brown get's to make the team the worst it's been in 25 years...and still gets a pass.

It's just funny...that's all...there are plenty of articles that show that brown is full of crap and is unable to connect with today's players.

So, what you guys are telling me is that we actually need LESS talent for brown to produce.

I'll bet all of you this is his last coaching stop.

He may turn it around, but it's time to start placing the blame squarly where it belongs.

The coach.
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:19 PM
bigbeast. you hit the nail on the head...note how short nyk4ever response was...and how specific it was:

It's not all about talent

Oh, ok...so the pistons, lakers and spurs don't have any talent. Tell that to miami.

It's about coaching!
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nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:20 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

bigbeast. you hit the nail on the head...note how short nyk4ever response was...and how specific it was:

It's not all about talent

Oh, ok...so the pistons, lakers and spurs don't have any talent. Tell that to miami.

It's about coaching!

Detroit doens't even have the best talent in the league.. they play as a team! Your argument isn't even yours it's made by a columnist but since your using columnist as your own opinion then I'll use one a good one at that too; Michael Wilbon
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nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:21 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5845326/
Why did U.S. men lose? Lack of skill
Group of NBA stars not good enough to win Olympics

COMMENTARY
By Michael Wilbon
Columnist
The Washington Post
Updated: 5:58 p.m. ET Aug. 28, 2004

ATHENS, Greece - The dirty little secret about this U.S. men's basketball team is that it has played harder than any team in the Olympics and has been superior at doing anything that required plain old-fashioned effort. If there was a ball on the floor, the Americans were almost certain to dive on it first. If there was a loose rebound, the U.S. players were usually quicker to it than anybody. It wasn't a lack of desire or fight that led the U.S. men to the bronze medal game.

It was a lack of skill.

There is all the evidence in the world of that, but we in America don't like to admit such things. All Argentina did in its 89-81 victory Friday was exhibit superior passing and shooting. All the Argentines did was take a lead seven minutes into the game and hold it the rest of the way. They made 54 percent of their field goal tries and 50 percent of their three-point shots, while the Americans made 42 percent of their field goal tries, and just 27 percent of their three-point shots. Argentina recorded 18 assists to just 11 for the United States.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

See, this isn't the "NBA Live!" videogame or the "And 1" street ball tour or an AAU summer league game in which players are judged by who can throw it down and make the world go "Ooooooh." Basketball is now so competitive that to be a world-class team you had better have players with world-class skills. And the fact, Jack, is that the U.S. team has A-plus determination but only C-plus skills.

Live Vote
How will the U.S. men's basketball team play against Lithuania after losing in the semifinals?
They'll come back strong and win easily
Start slow, but win
Play tight, lose
Quit playing early and get stomped

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It showed against Puerto Rico when the tournament opened, then again against Lithuania, and once more against Argentina. That's three losses in 12 days for a team representing a nation that had previously lost once, legitimately, in the history of Olympic basketball. "We fought as hard as we could," Allen Iverson said, quite accurately. "They executed their offense nearly perfectly." On that, he was quite accurate as well.

It should no longer be unthinkable for a U.S. team full of NBA players to be eliminated from gold medal contention. American players, and this includes those sitting at home, aren't as skilled as their predecessors. And increasingly, they're not as skilled as their international peers.

Sarunas Jasikevicius is probably the best shooter in this tournament. He's Lithuanian.

Pau Gasol has been the best big man in the competition by a million miles. He's a Spaniard.

Manu Ginobili has been the best all-around guard. He's an Argentine.

Carlos Arroyo has been perhaps the best playmaker. He's Puerto Rican.

The best dunk doesn't count for anything here. There's no medal for the best crossover. Sneakers sold doesn't move you to the next round. Oh, and the refs call traveling in the Olympics, which took two points and a breakaway dunk away from LeBron James against Argentina.

"It's time to give some credit to basketball players around the world," Argentina's Pepe Sanchez said. "We can play the sport."

Also on this story

Dream dashed: U.S. men lose semifinal
Celizic: NBA-style basketball flops on Athens stage
Litke: World's better teams beat U.S.' better players

Sanchez is in a unique position to judge. He played college ball at Temple for John Chaney. He was traded, twice no less, by Larry Brown in the NBA. He grew up on NBA basketball. His voice drops to a whisper when he says names like John Stockton and Michael Jordan. But Sanchez is a little tired of the excuse-making, of the inability for Americans to see world basketball for what it is now, not what it was in 1992.

"Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were posters in your bedroom," Sanchez said. "Those guys were like a myth. These guys are players. There's no fear of them. They're great players, too. They're the best team in the world in terms of individuals, don't get me wrong. But the game is five-on-five, not one-on-one. It's not tennis.

"It's upsetting to keep hearing that these guys need time to adjust to the rules and the international game is so different for them. Rules? A guy misses a jump shot from three, wide open. What rule is that? You gotta be kidding me. They tried to play zone against us. We hit two threes, they had to stop playing zone. That's not having trouble with a rule. Hit a shot, the other team can't sit back in a zone."

Live Vote
What is the biggest reason why the U.S. men's basketball team failed to win gold?
Coaching
Didn't send best players
Lack of outside shooting
Rest of the world has caught up
Officiating
No defense

Vote to see results
It's just that simple to Sanchez, because he can hit the three. And if he can't on a given night, two or three of his teammates can. For example, Argentina made 11 of 22 three-point tries. But this U.S. team didn't have players who could do that. Few

American players can. When you learn basketball from "And 1" and SportsCenter and the AAU coach who has been slobbering over you since you turned 12, this is what happens. You move along, especially if you can run and jump, despite your basketball-specific deficiencies. It's not difficult to trace the erosion of skills in this country, to figure out why players in America don't pass and shoot well.

Start with the fact that they don't go to college. Or if they do, they don't stay long. Seven of the 12 players on this U.S. team went to college two years or fewer. Five went one season or not at all. Where would they have acquired the fundamental skills that members of, say, the Dream Team had? On the playground? In summer league? This is the direction all of American basketball is going. Lamar Odom points out, accurately, that in European countries the kids are almost locked away in schools/basketball camps that increasingly produce polished basketball players by age 20. Is this good for their lives? Probably not. But these Europeans and South Americans are dramatically improved at passing and shooting and their American counterparts are worse.

We in America don't see that, by and large. We presume when a player is black and athletic he is a superior player. When he's got a big shoe contract, can sell some soda and can throw it down in an NBA game, we presume he's skilled. And when somebody suggests he might not be as skilled as some white kid from Lithuania or Serbia, well, we Americans laugh our heads off, don't we? Hey, Larry Bird just did it. He just said he felt insulted when a white guy was assigned to guard him.

You can't get to the heart of what's up with contemporary American basketball without dealing with the perception of race. Black and white people in America presume black athleticism on a basketball court equals skill, and it doesn't. Skill is colorless. All kinds of people can develop it, from Beijing to Vilnius.

While it's clear basketball outside of America has improved dramatically, it's plain stupid to argue that American basketball is better than it was a dozen years ago. Serbia didn't have a Peja Stojakovic a dozen years ago. Spain didn't have a Gasol a dozen years ago. Argentina certainly didn't have a Ginobili a dozen years ago. Germany didn't have a Dirk Nowitzki. All those countries have better players now than ever. Meanwhile, there isn't an American player in the NBA today who has Chris Mullin's jump shot or his economy of movement, who knows the lines and angles that can be exploited the way he knew them. And Mullin was probably the 10th best player on that Olympic team.

Stranger than seeing the U.S. team play for bronze is seeing celebrated American players turn out to be less skilled than their counterparts from other nations, whose

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 02-26-2006 10:21 PM]
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oohah
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2/26/2006  10:25 PM
It's not all about talent! It's about players performing. There wasn't one player on that team that could make an open jumpshot... not one! Just ask Sarunas Jaskivicous who said that the US had no business winning becuase they didn't have the players to win. Let me find the quote.

Okay, let me get this straight:

Tim Duncan Can't make a jumpshot.
Allen Iverson Can't make a jumpshot.
Stephon Marbury Can't make a jumpshot.
Shawn Marion Can't make a jumpshot.
Dwyane Wade Can't make a jumpshot.

Come on.

Detroit doens't even have the best talent in the league.. they play as a team!

Who has better all-around talent than the Pistons?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:25 PM
It's becoming painfully clear to me on this board that alot of guys are obsessed with And1 and other mixtape garbage. That isn't basketball, never has and it never will be. Those guys are playing in that becuase they don't play defense and they don't the other fundamental skills to play in the NBA. About 3/4 of the Knick roster and the NBA for that matter, fit into that category as well. Theres only one guy we can blame on the Knicks having them and thats Isiah Thomas.
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2/26/2006  10:25 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

bigbeast. you hit the nail on the head...note how short nyk4ever response was...and how specific it was:

It's not all about talent

Oh, ok...so the pistons, lakers and spurs don't have any talent. Tell that to miami.

That was an amazing display of your reading comprehension. Please teach us all how you pulled that brilliant inference out of what nyk4ever had to say.
It's about coaching!

You can't have it both ways. You claim that LB does not get credit for the Pistons, however, he does get credit for the Knicks' losses.
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:25 PM
nice GIGANTIC POST...how about this little snippet you skipped over (obviously you didn't read it)

Sanchez is in a unique position to judge. He played college ball at Temple for John Chaney. He was traded, twice no less, by Larry Brown in the NBA

But somehow manages to play better elsewhere.

But, I guess you can post a gigantic article you didn't read and it's supposed to trump two articles that say blame the coach.

You are a joke. and I mean that from the heart.

I know it's painful watching the knicks lose, but if larry can't get any wins out of this team, then he sucks.
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:26 PM
you are right, Lebron and Wade are garbage!
Posted by nyk4ever:

It's becoming painfully clear to me on this board that alot of guys are obsessed with And1 and other mixtape garbage. That isn't basketball, never has and it never will be. Those guys are playing in that becuase they don't play defense and they don't the other fundamental skills to play in the NBA. About 3/4 of the Knick roster and the NBA for that matter, fit into that category as well. Theres only one guy we can blame on the Knicks having them and thats Isiah Thomas.

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nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:27 PM
Posted by oohah:
It's not all about talent! It's about players performing. There wasn't one player on that team that could make an open jumpshot... not one! Just ask Sarunas Jaskivicous who said that the US had no business winning becuase they didn't have the players to win. Let me find the quote.

Okay, let me get this straight:

Tim Duncan Can't make a jumpshot.
Allen Iverson Can't make a jumpshot.
Stephon Marbury Can't make a jumpshot.
Shawn Marion Can't make a jumpshot.
Dwyane Wade Can't make a jumpshot.

Come on.

Detroit doens't even have the best talent in the league.. they play as a team!

Who has better all-around talent than the Pistons?

oohah

None of those players did anything on their other teams. No, I don't think Detroit has the best talent in the league, I'd say the Heat or the Mavs have the best all-around talent but what will keep the Pistons winning is that they know how to play defense and play as a team. Take anyone of those guys(aside from Ben Wallace) off the team and put them on another NBA team and they aren't the same player as they are on the Pistons.
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nyk4ever
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2/26/2006  10:29 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

nice GIGANTIC POST...how about this little snippet you skipped over (obviously you didn't read it)

Sanchez is in a unique position to judge. He played college ball at Temple for John Chaney. He was traded, twice no less, by Larry Brown in the NBA

But somehow manages to play better elsewhere.

But, I guess you can post a gigantic article you didn't read and it's supposed to trump two articles that say blame the coach.

You are a joke. and I mean that from the heart.

I know it's painful watching the knicks lose, but if larry can't get any wins out of this team, then he sucks.

Wow Hoss what did I say to you to get you so revved up? Maybe Fish will come on and make you his bitch like he always does. You know nothing but 'streets' basketball, but hey maybe I'll pull a Hoss and disappear from the forum for a few months becuase I can't take the heat!

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 02-26-2006 10:30 PM]
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:30 PM
Pistons had 50 wins PRE larry.
What do you have to offer besides back talk and regurgitation?

Are you disputing these articles and just feel larry's 15 wins so far a awesome because the roster isn't up to snuff?

What was your explanation for the olympic debacle? Oh, you don't have one.

eVil...say something, please...it's funny...you had a post talking about resumes...Malik Rose has as many championships as LB, but you think he's a bumb.

Talk about having it both ways.

15 wins and it's the coach has no blam whatsoever.

tell that to the guy that LB replaced in Detroit that manages to win when his entire team is suspended for the year (yep, I'm talking about carlisle).

blind admiration is a dangerous thing.
Posted by eViL:
Posted by rvhoss:

bigbeast. you hit the nail on the head...note how short nyk4ever response was...and how specific it was:

It's not all about talent

Oh, ok...so the pistons, lakers and spurs don't have any talent. Tell that to miami.

That was an amazing display of your reading comprehension. Please teach us all how you pulled that brilliant inference out of what nyk4ever had to say.
It's about coaching!

You can't have it both ways. You claim that LB does not get credit for the Pistons, however, he does get credit for the Knicks' losses.

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2/26/2006  10:31 PM
None of those players did anything on their other teams.

That same group in Detroit went to the Eastern Conference finals twice before Brown and were on their way there again with him until they got R. Wallace and that put them over the top.

No, I don't think Detroit has the best talent in the league, I'd say the Heat or the Mavs have the best all-around talent but what will keep the Pistons winning is that they know how to play defense and play as a team. Take anyone of those guys(aside from Ben Wallace) off the team and put them on another NBA team and they aren't the same player as they are on the Pistons.

So arguably, there are 2-3 teams with better talent than Detroit? Not bad. That doesn't take away from their team play, but the talent is there.

oohah



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2/26/2006  10:31 PM
You might think this is a battle of articles, but it's not. What we see when we watch games is plain and simple. The team is weak. They play no D. They are poorly assembled. They are a mis-matched group of individual talents who lack chemistry and the desire to buy into a team concept.

You seem to value articles like they are the gospel. Well why don't you surf for today's Knicks news? All the articles are about how poorly constructed the team is. I guess you can't post those because they don't back up your anti-LB rants.

PS: ...rvhoss is to Larry Brown what islesfan is to Isiah Thomas...
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rvhoss
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2/26/2006  10:32 PM
eVil...last I checked, LB wasn't coaching the pistons and they have an EVEN BETTER Record.

So, LB was the only reason they won, not coach before (50 wins) or the current coach...it's all LB...ok, you got it.
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2/26/2006  10:33 PM
Manu Ginobili has rings so I'll give you him.

Carlos Arroyo could'nt even get off the bench on that Detriot team that you said didn't have the most talent.

The rest of those guys can't compare to the talent Brown had at his disposal. Amare was top 3 in MVP voting last year, and Lebron is arguably the most skilled player in the league and those guys weren't good enough for Brown?

And you guys want brown picking the groceries for his team when he picks Okafor over Micheal Redd? A guy who is taylor made for the Olympics? Oh, I forgot, Brown can't adjust his style, so playing the type of ball you need to play to compete in the Olympic was completely out of the question.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
How quickly we forget...LB not too long ago..

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