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It's a free country and fans can chant Fire Isiah All they Want, But....
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efw
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2/27/2006  12:59 PM


We all said that Isiah had the best off season and draft of any GM out there when training camp started. Just because the results haven't been there, why do you place the responsibility on the GM all of a sudden?

And Don Nelson is not a good example to counter Isiah with. In many ways, they are a lot alike. They both drafted extremely well and both have done terrible free-agent signings. Nelson has had the luxury of time (let's see how Frye, Nate, and Lee impact this team in 2-3 years.) and an excellent coach in Avery Johnson.

Something turned Isiah's offseason triumphs into disasters. It's up to him and Larry to fix it. There's enough blame to go around.

This is not all Isiah's fault. But I understand the need for an effigy.
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Marv
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2/27/2006  1:08 PM
Posted by efw:



We all said that Isiah had the best off season and draft of any GM out there when training camp started. Just because the results haven't been there, why do you place the responsibility on the GM all of a sudden?

And Don Nelson is not a good example to counter Isiah with. In many ways, they are a lot alike. They both drafted extremely well and both have done terrible free-agent signings. Nelson has had the luxury of time (let's see how Frye, Nate, and Lee impact this team in 2-3 years.) and an excellent coach in Avery Johnson.

Something turned Isiah's offseason triumphs into disasters. It's up to him and Larry to fix it. There's enough blame to go around.

This is not all Isiah's fault. But I understand the need for an effigy.

After, I agree, a great offseason, he's now jettisoning Reezy who just a few months ago was one of our most promising young guys, he's adding horrifically overpriced starphuch chumps like Rose and Francis, he can't seem to exert any influence at all over his hand=-picked coach, he's delivering a 15-40 team without its #1 for the next 2 years. C'mon, how much worse do youi need it to get
jaydh
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2/27/2006  1:09 PM
Posted by Marv:

After, I agree, a great offseason, he's now jettisoning Reezy who just a few months ago was one of our most promising young guys, he's adding horrifically overpriced starphuch chumps like Rose and Francis, he can't seem to exert any influence at all over his hand=-picked coach, he's delivering a 15-40 team without its #1 for the next 2 years. C'mon, how much worse do youi need it to get


yea right.....
Marv
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2/27/2006  1:14 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Marv:

After, I agree, a great offseason, he's now jettisoning Reezy who just a few months ago was one of our most promising young guys, he's adding horrifically overpriced starphuch chumps like Rose and Francis, he can't seem to exert any influence at all over his hand=-picked coach, he's delivering a 15-40 team without its #1 for the next 2 years. C'mon, how much worse do youi need it to get


yea right.....

Hey Reezy was the crowning jewel of Isiah's entire last season, don't you think? Did he turn to s**t that quickly? If Isiah keeps bringing in myoung talent and he brought in a coach who won't work with that same young talent, then what does he do? Kill the talent and bring in overpriced vet schmucks?

efw
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2/27/2006  1:28 PM
I truly believe that adding Rose was not somethign Isiah (or any sane person) would normally do but was done as a concession to Dolan who probably requested that he do something to avoid a last place finish in the standings.

The francis trade was a good trade, not because of current needs, but because of future possibilities. I think any GM, given the oppurtunity to get Steve for the price of a second rounder would make that trade every time.

Isiah is not delivering a 15-40 team. Larry Brown and the players are doing that. In most organizations, a teams record is based on the coach and players. A GM usually works behind the scenes. A GM will get hired or fired based on the percieved success of his drafting, trades and transactions. Isiah has clearly failed badly on a couple of those (name me one GM who hasn't) and has clearly exceeded expectations on others.

Believe me, there's plenty of blame to go all the way around the organization.
fishmike
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2/27/2006  1:39 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>What if, instead of Marbury we had Andre Igoduala and we had Frye and we could think about adding Rudy Gay or Adam Morrison or LaMarcus Aldridge or Shelden Williams?

What if?

This isn't about what IF. This is a simple test of your basketball knowledge and critical thinking.

crzymdups - if you STILL refuse to answer the question with any thoughtful analysis

it's cool

you can always go start another thread

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-27-2006 12:41 PM]
Earl your question has been answered in about 100 threads. Is your new angle that if people dont have the perfect replacement that alone is grounds for Isiah retaining his job?

With the exception of about 5 guys on this board every basketball person, analyst, fan, writer or announcer is baffled Isiah still has a job. Now forget the masses. I for one dont care what the NY writers say. Hell, I think I know more than them. The simple fact is in every single deal Isiah has made he has either grossly overpaid or the team he's dealt with benefited much more from the deal than we did (translation: he got hosed). While one could say he has drafted well, he has been a HORRIBLE judge of talent and chemistry. He's picked 3 coaches all have which have been duds and failed to motivate his players so far.

We can pick apart every single move and be challenged to find one that makes sense. Its not worth it.

Who to replace him? Kik's contract is up. Nellie is ready for his new challenge. Hell, I would take a first timer. Allan Houston, Greg Anthony or Mark Jackson all have good hoops minds.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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2/27/2006  1:39 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>What if, instead of Marbury we had Andre Igoduala and we had Frye and we could think about adding Rudy Gay or Adam Morrison or LaMarcus Aldridge or Shelden Williams?

What if?

This isn't about what IF. This is a simple test of your basketball knowledge and critical thinking.

crzymdups - if you STILL refuse to answer the question with any thoughtful analysis

it's cool

you can always go start another thread

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-27-2006 12:41 PM]

You didn't answer my question: when is enough enough? When will Isiah finally have done a bad job in your eyes? If he trades Frye and Jalen for Webber? Tell me when?

I have outlined better solutions plenty of times and really it doesn't matter who is running the team, it's HOW they run it. Isiah said he wouldn't go after players whose "names were bigger than their games" - players who were paid like super stars but didn't produce. What's Jalen Rose? What's Steve Francis? Curry? Qrich? Crawford? Marbury?

I would bring in Kiki, I would have offered Bryan Colangelo a lot of money, Donnie Nelson isn't a bad pick, I'd let Russ Granik take a crack. You have to bring in somehow who knows the importance of financial flexibility, but most importantly knows that building a TEAM has nothing to with assembling five guys who can score. Really, I don't care who comes in, but it has to be someone who knows how to build a team.
¿ △ ?
martin
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2/27/2006  1:43 PM
Posted by efw:

I truly believe that adding Rose was not somethign Isiah (or any sane person) would normally do but was done as a concession to Dolan who probably requested that he do something to avoid a last place finish in the standings.

The francis trade was a good trade, not because of current needs, but because of future possibilities. I think any GM, given the oppurtunity to get Steve for the price of a second rounder would make that trade every time.

I think the Rose and Francis trades were the first 2 that Isiah made where the Knicks really didn't have to give up anything and actually got better in return. Rose's extra year does nothing to hurt the Knicks AND we got a pick out of it (who may turn into a big with spring who can rebound, shotbock, defend if combined with another pick).

We upgrade talent in a HUGE way with Francis. I still believe there is a market for him.

Both trades were done under Isiah's watch but have Borwn's fingerprints all over them.

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djsunyc
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2/27/2006  1:48 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by efw:

I truly believe that adding Rose was not somethign Isiah (or any sane person) would normally do but was done as a concession to Dolan who probably requested that he do something to avoid a last place finish in the standings.

The francis trade was a good trade, not because of current needs, but because of future possibilities. I think any GM, given the oppurtunity to get Steve for the price of a second rounder would make that trade every time.

I think the Rose and Francis trades were the first 2 that Isiah made where the Knicks really didn't have to give up anything and actually got better in return. Rose's extra year does nothing to hurt the Knicks AND we got a pick out of it (who may turn into a big with spring who can rebound, shotbock, defend if combined with another pick).

We upgrade talent in a HUGE way with Francis. I still believe there is a market for him.

Both trades were done under Isiah's watch but have Borwn's fingerprints all over them.

well, it's pretty apparent that all he's doing is just trying to upgrade the talent, regardless of how they all fit. upgrading talent regardless of the fit is not how you build a team. so now everyone is speculating about this "NEXT" move. and now, 2 1/2 years later, it's being spun as if the "NEXT" move isn't kg, you're time is up.

i was hoping for a guy like earl watson. i was hoping for a guy like reggie evans. why? b/c to me, that shows me a HUGE philosophical change in putting a team together. but no, we got jalen + francis. two talent upgrades that just don't fit. now we're all talking about the "NEXT" move.
djsunyc
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2/27/2006  1:50 PM
Posted by misterearl:

... if New Yorkers are truly the most knowledgeable fans on the planet...

... and there are people who can think beyond just calling for someone's head...

... and you are a forward-thinking and truly Knicks basketball Jedi material...

the ultimate question remains:

(until I can think of a better one)

Who are YOU prepared to offer as the best solution to fill the vacated position as President of Basketball Operations ?

1. Please offer more than throwing out simply a name to see if it sticks

2. Please state why he (or she) is the best person qualified to meet the Knicks criteria

3. and how long they would receive to meet your stated expectations

You know who you are - you are on the clock...

earl, when layden got fired, and you were proposed those same questions, where would've isiah ranked on your list?
TMS
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2/27/2006  1:54 PM
if i had to choose, i'd give the reigns over to LB & let him choose for himself the type of players he wants... he was able to build an Eastern Conference Champion w/the Sixers... at least he has some credible history on his resume... i'm well aware of his impatience w/young players & the whole nine, but i'm sick of deflecting blame on this GM & on that coach... i say let 1 guy be solely accountable for this team.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
SlimPack
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2/27/2006  1:55 PM
one thing to keep in mind here is that Isiah thomas's resume as far as a GM is concerned was a pretty bad one to begin with, so firing him in light of what has become of this team wouldn't be that unreasonable a thing to do.

if you look at what he has done from a purely objective standpoint he has done mostly a bad job. Even though I love channing frye, david lee, and certain other players, he has mostly assembled a group of players that are talented yet are soft and heartless, and in some cases have bad attitudes, and that dont play well together. He has traded lots of picks and ignored the salary cap, has hired coaches that can't coach, and after everything is said and done has lead the knicks to its one of its worse records in franchise history in a year in which we owe another team our draft pick.

From a general standard these are fireable offenses. so I dont see how firing him and hiring a coach that has a better resume than he did (such as blazers assistant GM, Mark Warkentien who is known to be an excellent talent evaluator and who on Portland's behalf was responsible for late-round steals such as Jermaine O'Neal (No. 17), Zach Randolph (19), Bonzi Wells (27) and Alvin Williams (47)d. Allowing the Blazers to replenish with young talent despite having stayed out of the lottery since 1996) would be an illogical move.

however even having said that I think he should be given until next season before the fans, start chanting for him to be fired, or not attending games, or excersiing whatever power they have to get him fired, becuase with our promising young players, and larry browns history of starting slow and then coaching well theres still a chance that Isiah can fix all this if he makes the right moves this offseason, but there's a pretty good chance that NY fans will push for Isiah to be fired before than as the loses and team disfunction mount further.

oh and another thing misterearl if you STILL needs more candidates on people that have better resume's that IT than New Jersey's Ed Stefanski, Boston's Chris Wallace and Sacramento's Wayne Cooper, probably all fit that bill.









[Edited by - slimpack on 02-27-2006 2:05 PM]
SlimPack
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2/27/2006  2:26 PM
oh you know what guys, I just thought of something. it only makes sense to fire isiah after next season, becuase of the swap, that would put pressure on any new gm we hire, the best thing to do is to fire isiah after the swap happens, or deosnt happen, and hire whoever he is during a season where we have all of our draft picks to work with.
misterearl
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2/27/2006  8:18 PM
>>earl, when layden got fired, and you were proposed those same questions, where would've isiah ranked on your list?

dj - good question.

I thought Magic Johnson was on the Knicks radar but his countless business ventures made that problemmatic... besides, he's a Laker.

I always wanted the Knicks to hire someone with ties to the organization

That's one rteason I hated to see Ernie Grunfeld fired by Checketts

The only great mind I can think of who fits the mandatory genius criteria is Jerry Lucas

Bring back Paul Silas





once a knick always a knick
djsunyc
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2/27/2006  8:24 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>earl, when layden got fired, and you were proposed those same questions, where would've isiah ranked on your list?

dj - good question.

I thought Magic Johnson was on the Knicks radar but his countless business ventures made that problemmatic... besides, he's a Laker.

I always wanted the Knicks to hire someone with ties to the organization

That's one rteason I hated to see Ernie Grunfeld fired by Checketts

The only great mind I can think of who fits the mandatory genius criteria is Jerry Lucas

Bring back Paul Silas

i agree, grunfeld was a good guy. never used the draft but he didn't need to.

bring back paul as an assistant coach to teach eddy the concept of rebounding.

then how about kiki? he was coached by lb in college but he also played for us. i believe his dad did also so there are some ties there. my personal preference would be a no-nonsense candid guy that just stays in the back and gets the job done.
Marv
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2/27/2006  8:31 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>earl, when layden got fired, and you were proposed those same questions, where would've isiah ranked on your list?

dj - good question.

I thought Magic Johnson was on the Knicks radar but his countless business ventures made that problemmatic... besides, he's a Laker.

I always wanted the Knicks to hire someone with ties to the organization

That's one rteason I hated to see Ernie Grunfeld fired by Checketts

The only great mind I can think of who fits the mandatory genius criteria is Jerry Lucas

Bring back Paul Silas



We know Lucas would have no troubles with remembering every player's name, statistics, contract, free agency status, etc. In America and every foreign league!
Rich
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2/27/2006  8:31 PM
No GM would be better than Isiah, but it's equally important that Steve Mills be kicked on his ass as well.
misterearl
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2/28/2006  10:31 PM
Rich - you want to kick Steve Mills ass over the Rangers performance this season?

He runs that show as well
once a knick always a knick
Rich
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2/28/2006  10:59 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Rich - you want to kick Steve Mills ass over the Rangers performance this season?

He runs that show as well

Oh please. He has nothing to do with that. A playoff appearance every seven or eight years is a fireable offense.

You're not Mills, are you?
misterearl
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2/28/2006  11:03 PM
Mills?

No, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
once a knick always a knick
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