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misterearl
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2/25/2006  10:10 AM
fishmike - you are more than welcome to rehire Scott Layden, who is charting deflections for the Jazz


Nothing wrong with a truckload of revisionist history manure. Out of the former Knicks players you listed (Eisley, Ward, Harrington, Spoon, Kurt, Spree, Houston and Shandon Anderson), how many were Layden acquisitions?

It would be poetic justice to allow Layden the opportunity to undo Isiah's work in two years and make a championship run in half the time (four years) than he had to accomplish absolutely nothing

Bring back Layden


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:13 AM]
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TheloniusMonk
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2/25/2006  10:22 AM
Yeah Fish, I'm with you...BRING BACK LAYDEN!!!!
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
misterearl
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2/25/2006  10:37 AM
Why stop there?

Bring back Don Chaney

Because THAT is who the coach was.



[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:38 AM]
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TheloniusMonk
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2/25/2006  10:52 AM
But seriously, they say new york fans are the most knowledgeable. It is surprising that fans don't understand that there is talent on the floor. It is now the coach's job to get the players to understand and buy into a set system and into roles. How does one buy into a role when they are in the starting lineup today, 6th man tomorrow, benched the day after, inactive the day after that....just to end up being a starter again and back to riding the pine? This is so obvious.

I hate to bring up other coaches but take sloan or pop for instance. They will set a specific sustem and whoever doesn't fit into that system does not play....period. In fact if you don't buy into the system then you're out of here. Players here in New York are confused. I would be too. It's surprising that the so called 'knowledgeable fans" don't understand that the issue is not simply Isiah Thomas. You don't like the players he's compiled...fine. Personally, I like some of them. But if you have a problem with the fiscal approach of this team why fire a GM when that comes from Dolan? There is obviously a philosophy in place here. Any GM hired must abide by a philosophy.....this should be obvious to 'the most knowledgeable fans". It should also be obvious that any GM that comes here will have to operate under that same approach.

This is why most GM's in this league probably would not take the New York job. Most of them would shy away from it. They know that you'd have to blow it up and begin from the Ewing era. But no, this is not the mindset of ownership. Therefore any GM coming in here (if they are so brave) have to do the same thing. So here you have a man brave enough to know the rules of which this organization is run but is also willing to try to at least get the best players under that type of fiscal approach. This is what any GM would have to do here as long as Dolan is in charge. Layden's notion was to get players who play hard no matter what but had very little talent. Isiah's approach has been ALL talent. This is assuming that your coach can sort through the talent and create a style of play and a system to abide by.

Now...once the players are on the court the coach must deliver. LB also knew the philosophy of Dolan when he came. It's not a secret. Everyone in the league knows how the Knicks are run. He knew what type of players we would and wouldn't be able to get. We welcome Steve Francis to the lineup...get the L...and chant fire Isiah when this is Larry's acquisition? Smarten up.

btw, for those of you who were screaming for Colangelo...I doubt he'd even entertain coming here. He'll go somewhere that he can actually blow things up if need be. New York is a whoooooole different job from most other markets. Why? Dolan. It's as simple as that.

Where are the knowledgeable fans. I see that SOME are on this board. Others? Not so sure.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Allanfan20
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2/25/2006  11:02 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fishmike - you are more than welcome to rehire Scott Layden, who is charting deflections for the Jazz


Nothing wrong with a truckload of revisionist history manure. Out of the former Knicks players you listed (Eisley, Ward, Harrington, Spoon, Kurt, Spree, Houston and Shandon Anderson), how many were Layden acquisitions?

It would be poetic justice to allow Layden the opportunity to undo Isiah's work in two years and make a championship run in half the time (four years) than he had to accomplish absolutely nothing

Bring back Layden


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:13 AM]

Misterearl, the point is that this team is so bad, that Layden's nightmare teams are looking like a dream ride compared to this, b/c at least they worked hard and played smart. Layden's teams were stupid. Now look at Isiahs teams. If they are making us desire to have Layden's team back, then that's how bad our situation is now. It's ugly.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TheloniusMonk
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2/25/2006  11:09 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by misterearl:

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:13 AM]

Layden's nightmare teams are looking like a dream ride compared to this, b/c at least they worked hard and played smart.

Played smart? Which Layden team was this again?

'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Allanfan20
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2/25/2006  11:14 AM
Posted by TheloniusMonk:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by misterearl:

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:13 AM]

Layden's nightmare teams are looking like a dream ride compared to this, b/c at least they worked hard and played smart.

Played smart? Which Layden team was this again?

Houston and Spree were very smart players, and heck, on the court they were good leaders, until Spree started showing his arshole nature again. Ward was smart, so was KT when he wasn't in foul trouble. But behind H20, Spree, and a little KT, nobody was that good. Very little talent besides a post move, once out of every 5 games by fat Spoon.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
djsunyc
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2/25/2006  11:16 AM
Posted by misterearl:

"Coach told me a million times during the game that I was nervous," Francis said, referring to Coach Larry Brown. "He told me to chill out. But I just wanted to try to do so well to help my team win, and I don't fault myself for that."

A million times?

>>Thomas chided reporters this week for repeatedly citing the Knicks' payroll as $120 million. The figure is unfair, Thomas said, because it includes $32 million being paid to players no longer on the roster — Allan Houston, Jerome Williams and Shandon Anderson. "I want you to add up the dollars that are actually playing out on the floor," Thomas said. The Knicks' starters last night will make a total of $46 million this season. The top nine players in the rotation make $83 million.

- NYTimes

Yeah, fire Isiah.


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 07:39 AM]

mister earl, if it was up to me, i'd fire both right away and start this whole shebang over this summer. i don't care if the guy that comes in inherits isiah's roster and they start winning next year. i don't care if isiah isn't around to see the "fruits" of his labour (although chances of any "fruit" being shown are very slim). i want to remove BOTH and start with some more candid people.

who you may ask?

i say, ask david stern to hook us up with a legitimate guy - like toronto did and they got colangelo.

be it the pacers assistant or kiki or quincy jones. just get some professionals here that don't double talk and aren't snakes in the grass as gm AND coach.
martin
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2/25/2006  11:18 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by misterearl:

"Coach told me a million times during the game that I was nervous," Francis said, referring to Coach Larry Brown. "He told me to chill out. But I just wanted to try to do so well to help my team win, and I don't fault myself for that."

A million times?

>>Thomas chided reporters this week for repeatedly citing the Knicks' payroll as $120 million. The figure is unfair, Thomas said, because it includes $32 million being paid to players no longer on the roster — Allan Houston, Jerome Williams and Shandon Anderson. "I want you to add up the dollars that are actually playing out on the floor," Thomas said. The Knicks' starters last night will make a total of $46 million this season. The top nine players in the rotation make $83 million.

- NYTimes

Yeah, fire Isiah.


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 07:39 AM]

mister earl, if it was up to me, i'd fire both right away and start this whole shebang over this summer. i don't care if the guy that comes in inherits isiah's roster and they start winning next year. i don't care if isiah isn't around to see the "fruits" of his labour (although chances of any "fruit" being shown are very slim). i want to remove BOTH and start with some more candid people.

who you may ask?

i say, ask david stern to hook us up with a legitimate guy - like toronto did and they got colangelo.

be it the pacers assistant or kiki or quincy jones. just get some professionals here that don't double talk and aren't snakes in the grass as gm AND coach.

yeah, but if you had asked Stern to suggest a coach for you last year he would have said Brown. And if you had asked Stern to suggest a GM 3 years ago after the Layden years, he probably would suggest Isiah.

What then? Fire each less than a year in a start over? Again?

Nice patience.
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TheloniusMonk
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2/25/2006  11:19 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

mister earl, if it was up to me, i'd fire both right away and start this whole shebang over this summer.

same owner???

same result.

'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
djsunyc
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2/25/2006  11:26 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by misterearl:

"Coach told me a million times during the game that I was nervous," Francis said, referring to Coach Larry Brown. "He told me to chill out. But I just wanted to try to do so well to help my team win, and I don't fault myself for that."

A million times?

>>Thomas chided reporters this week for repeatedly citing the Knicks' payroll as $120 million. The figure is unfair, Thomas said, because it includes $32 million being paid to players no longer on the roster — Allan Houston, Jerome Williams and Shandon Anderson. "I want you to add up the dollars that are actually playing out on the floor," Thomas said. The Knicks' starters last night will make a total of $46 million this season. The top nine players in the rotation make $83 million.

- NYTimes

Yeah, fire Isiah.


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 07:39 AM]

mister earl, if it was up to me, i'd fire both right away and start this whole shebang over this summer. i don't care if the guy that comes in inherits isiah's roster and they start winning next year. i don't care if isiah isn't around to see the "fruits" of his labour (although chances of any "fruit" being shown are very slim). i want to remove BOTH and start with some more candid people.

who you may ask?

i say, ask david stern to hook us up with a legitimate guy - like toronto did and they got colangelo.

be it the pacers assistant or kiki or quincy jones. just get some professionals here that don't double talk and aren't snakes in the grass as gm AND coach.

yeah, but if you had asked Stern to suggest a coach for you last year he would have said Brown. And if you had asked Stern to suggest a GM 3 years ago after the Layden years, he probably would suggest Isiah.

What then? Fire each less than a year in a start over? Again?

Nice patience.

there's patience and then there's damage control.

with the way this thing is going, do we ride this out just so we can "SEE" what happens? if there's ANYONE with cred in this organization it's larry so if ANYONE is going to be kept, it will be him. but with all the players unhappy and none really fit with the way lb wants to play defense, it's a total mismatch. i always defended larry on this board but i also don't care who's running the ship as long as there's direction and we win.

people are still giving the layden excuse when discussing isiah. that's why people keep saying give it time. look at what he inherited and look at the roster now. i would say there are only 3, maybe 4 people that may have had a shot to be bench players for the 90's knicks team. that's a whole lotta money spent for that, no?

two late #1's this year. a swap in '07. and at least one more unprotected pick gone from 08-10. ZERO 2nd round picks. we're over the cap.

hence, trades and MLE are the only real significant ways of improving. combine that with a coach that has about 2 more years here, then we are looking at somewhat of a quick fix. hence the KG talks. you KNOW frye will be dumped in a second for KG.

we can all see this happening. so why not hold a preemptive strike before it actually REACHES that point. dolan is an absolute idiot but he let's his GM's pretty much do what they want so the GM's are making the bball decisions and dolan just says yes or no concerning the money.

i only say this b/c i'm pretty concerned about the direction of the team.

we can have all the patience in the world but if we fired layden 2 years into his regime, then we would be in a better place now.
misterearl
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2/25/2006  11:27 AM
This was TOO well-conceived and too well-writen not to share

Bootleg Post Of The day

(a thousand pardons to emac2 and all concerned parties, I promise I won't do it again... promise... really....)

emac2 - 11:13 AM ET February 25, 2006 (#27493 of 27496)

NYTimes Forum

Allowing for the very small percentage of "bright lights" I have to say that New York fans are some of the dumbest and worst fans in sports.

The same media that said you couldn't rebuild in NY and credits NY fans as some of the smartest in the game leads them by the nose in crushing the spirit of one of the youngest teams in the game during the second year of a total rebuild.

Booing a team in it's first game with not only a major new part but with the other starting guard just returning from injury to a team that is completely new?

Who is dumb enough to buy a ticket to see a rebuilding team if you can't handle it?

Stay the F home!

With the media at least we know it's just "writers" that happily trade their morals for a pat on the back from an editor but the number of fans that seem to enjoy immersing themselves in misery and sharing it with others is mind boggling. It may be that legalized suicide may be the only way to clear the air. :)

It's amazing that a fan who can take losing for a couple of years during a desperately needed rebuild can't find ANYPLACE to even read a game recap that isn't dripping with insult and sarcasm.

You would think during a rebuild the fans would provide a little support for the players, help them develop instead of teaching them to wish for 82 road games.

At the end I didn't follow the team because of Layden.

Now it's hard to follow the team because of the fans and the media. It's a sad time when hate sells so well on such a large scale. After the urge to force others to be the same as us comes the urge to hate people that are different maybe third is to understand and help, I'm guessing that is much further down though still far above taking responsibility for changing things.

Why do people follow sports if it doesn't make them happy?
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/25/2006  11:30 AM
Allanfan20 - we cannot have a meaningful discussion if you refuse to define Layden's teams clearly.

The productive players mentioned froom that era were the result of the work done by Ernie Grunfeld.

Not Layden.
once a knick always a knick
martin
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2/25/2006  11:31 AM
Posted by misterearl:

This was TOO well-conceived and too well-writen not to share

Bootleg Post Of The day

(a thousand pardons to emac2 and all concerned parties, I promise I won't do it again... promise... really....)

emac2 - 11:13 AM ET February 25, 2006 (#27493 of 27496)

NYTimes Forum

Allowing for the very small percentage of "bright lights" I have to say that New York fans are some of the dumbest and worst fans in sports.

The same media that said you couldn't rebuild in NY and credits NY fans as some of the smartest in the game leads them by the nose in crushing the spirit of one of the youngest teams in the game during the second year of a total rebuild.

Booing a team in it's first game with not only a major new part but with the other starting guard just returning from injury to a team that is completely new?

Who is dumb enough to buy a ticket to see a rebuilding team if you can't handle it?

Stay the F home!

With the media at least we know it's just "writers" that happily trade their morals for a pat on the back from an editor but the number of fans that seem to enjoy immersing themselves in misery and sharing it with others is mind boggling. It may be that legalized suicide may be the only way to clear the air. :)

It's amazing that a fan who can take losing for a couple of years during a desperately needed rebuild can't find ANYPLACE to even read a game recap that isn't dripping with insult and sarcasm.

You would think during a rebuild the fans would provide a little support for the players, help them develop instead of teaching them to wish for 82 road games.

At the end I didn't follow the team because of Layden.

Now it's hard to follow the team because of the fans and the media. It's a sad time when hate sells so well on such a large scale. After the urge to force others to be the same as us comes the urge to hate people that are different maybe third is to understand and help, I'm guessing that is much further down though still far above taking responsibility for changing things.

Why do people follow sports if it doesn't make them happy?

I am with this poster.
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fishmike
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2/25/2006  11:32 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fishmike - you are more than welcome to rehire Scott Layden, who is charting deflections for the Jazz


Nothing wrong with a truckload of revisionist history manure. Out of the former Knicks players you listed (Eisley, Ward, Harrington, Spoon, Kurt, Spree, Houston and Shandon Anderson), how many were Layden acquisitions?

It would be poetic justice to allow Layden the opportunity to undo Isiah's work in two years and make a championship run in half the time (four years) than he had to accomplish absolutely nothing

Bring back Layden


[Edited by - MisterEarl on 02-25-2006 10:13 AM]
who said bring back Layden? That was your comment, not mine. Speaking of manure, the whole point was that while Layden was regarded as the most inept GM the guy thats followed him is 1000 times worse

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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2/25/2006  11:33 AM
Posted by misterearl:

This was TOO well-conceived and too well-writen not to share

Bootleg Post Of The day

(a thousand pardons to emac2 and all concerned parties, I promise I won't do it again... promise... really....)

emac2 - 11:13 AM ET February 25, 2006 (#27493 of 27496)

NYTimes Forum

Allowing for the very small percentage of "bright lights" I have to say that New York fans are some of the dumbest and worst fans in sports.

The same media that said you couldn't rebuild in NY and credits NY fans as some of the smartest in the game leads them by the nose in crushing the spirit of one of the youngest teams in the game during the second year of a total rebuild.

Booing a team in it's first game with not only a major new part but with the other starting guard just returning from injury to a team that is completely new?

Who is dumb enough to buy a ticket to see a rebuilding team if you can't handle it?

Stay the F home!

With the media at least we know it's just "writers" that happily trade their morals for a pat on the back from an editor but the number of fans that seem to enjoy immersing themselves in misery and sharing it with others is mind boggling. It may be that legalized suicide may be the only way to clear the air. :)

It's amazing that a fan who can take losing for a couple of years during a desperately needed rebuild can't find ANYPLACE to even read a game recap that isn't dripping with insult and sarcasm.

You would think during a rebuild the fans would provide a little support for the players, help them develop instead of teaching them to wish for 82 road games.

At the end I didn't follow the team because of Layden.

Now it's hard to follow the team because of the fans and the media. It's a sad time when hate sells so well on such a large scale. After the urge to force others to be the same as us comes the urge to hate people that are different maybe third is to understand and help, I'm guessing that is much further down though still far above taking responsibility for changing things.

Why do people follow sports if it doesn't make them happy?

you don't think payroll has ANYTHING to do with this?

you don't think bringing in another "BIG NAME" has anything to do with this?

i don't agree with this b/c it's never been done here. never. if the fans are told from day 1: "this is a rebuild. we are going to let the salaries expire. we are going to get solid draft picks and try to get under the cap. with the situation the way it is, it may take a few years so please be patient." and then follow that up with more meet & greet with players. more ticket discout nights. more access for fans, etc.

if they followed that business plan, you don't think ny fans would be patient?

but no, we got a smug gm patting himself on the back after every move. we got frivilous spending. we have "starphucking". we bring in larry brown. what signs have they given us that we are rebuilding? one draft where 2 of those 3 guys will probably be traded within the next 6 months doesn't tell us that either.
TheloniusMonk
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2/25/2006  11:34 AM
^^^^wow, what that poster (from ny times forum) said should be bronzed.

[Edited by - theloniusmonk on 02-25-2006 11:36 AM]
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
McK1
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2/25/2006  11:40 AM
what of nalod's suggestion of Russ Granik. fire Mills and hire Granik as President of MSG Sports.

Allan Houston new GM.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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2/25/2006  11:54 AM
when the Knicks offer REFUNDS to season ticket holders I'm sure many will stay the F home. Otherwise thats the dumbest crap I have ever read.

When your promised something and that promise falls far far far short your entitled to bitch about it. Thats life baby

Hey Earl... it IS their money.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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2/25/2006  12:13 PM
fishmike - it's djsu's money, that's why I respect every word he writes

>>the whole point was that while Layden was regarded as the most inept GM the guy thats followed him is 1000 times worse

A thousand times worse?

fishmike - me thinketh thou doesth protest a bit over the top

Did you say a thousand?

There are only 14 roster spots. Even if Isiah butchered every move for each former layden roster player that he ineherited, the absolute worst he could be is fourteen times worser.

Don't you agree?

Then again, lets imagine that Isiah stays and Larry Brown's message takes root and the Knicks are playoff bound nest season.



Does that make Zeke's regime instantly better?



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