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Shouldn't Denver & Utah be elite teams right now.
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newyorknewyork
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2/24/2006  5:28 PM
They both had a lot picks and unlimited capspace at like 2-3 seasons ago.

Denver drafts Nene who might be traded, Melo, Skeet who they trade. Then with there unlimited cap space, sign Andre Miller, And trade 3 draft picks and overpay for K-Mart who they now want to trade. And are still in search for a quality SG for like 3yrs in a row.

Utah drafted Snyder who they later traded, Kris Humphries and overpaid for Carlos Boozer who they want to trade now. Okur has been solid though.

You would think that with all the assets they had at that point in time they would be elite teams by now.
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Cavs should be elite by now too with all the assets they had when they tanked for Lebron.

Chicago should be elite. They have been building and had cap space for how many yrs now and have one 47win season and a first rd exit??(or did they exit pass the first rd I don't remember?) to show for it.

ATL traded away 3 straight lottery picks from 2001-2003 passing on 3 great drafts. There best free agent signing is who Joe Johnson and they had to give up 2 draft picks for him and overpay him though he is very talented. Though they restarted rebuilding when they moved Rahim, Robinson, Terry so they get a little leway.

Golden State - Shouldn't they be elite by now they landed Jason Richardson, Murphy, Dunleavy, Pietrus, Biedrens. How long have they been building for. They even got Baron Davis for scraps. With there money they resigned J-Rich, Murphy, Foyle, and signed Derek Fisher to long term deals.

Boston has had 14 total draft picks from 2001-2005 and Paul Pierce to build around.

Suns pulled it off and are in great shape.

Miluakee though they aren't a top team I like how they have built. They might need to package some people for a superstar to go along with Redd & Bogut.

All these teams have had more than enough cap space and picks to become a top tier team. Plus they work in a less stressfull environment the NY and don't have the presser that NY has to be a contender or the media disecting every single thing they do. So how come with all that they aren't elite teams yet??

It will be interesting to see what Orlando & Toronto do with rebuilding and there assets. And I wonder if the Knicks say were in the same position as these teams when Isiah took over how we would look right now. Say he had cap space to sign free agents, and a bunch of up coming draft picks. And had less pressure to build a winner then how it is in NY. And also didn't have the luxury(spell) of having Dolans infinite bank account at his expense.
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TymeLessKnicks
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2/24/2006  5:44 PM
well looking at all those teams just proves how hard it is to ba a gm in this league. but i think toronto and orlando are in the exact same place right now.

they both have 2 all-star caliber front court players, so it all depends is they will use the cap room on the right player and take their team to the next level...but as u can see the odds are stacked against them.
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crzymdups
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2/24/2006  5:48 PM
I've said this before, but only one champion team in the post-90s era (I don't know the cap situation for teams before then) has been built with cap space and that was the Lakers getting Shaq. Especially in New York, being over the cap is rarely going to prevent us from acquiring big name players in trades. But most championship teams are built through the draft with a few shrewd trades thrown in. Detroit is really the only championship squad that wasn't built primarily through the draft.

So you don't REALLY need cap room, but lotto picks are pretty essential. And that doesn't mean you can build one without a plan.
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Elite
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2/24/2006  6:13 PM
denver should be good
TheloniusMonk
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2/24/2006  6:54 PM
this is a very interesting point here.
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egelband
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2/24/2006  7:00 PM
good points all. there are more than one way to win a championship.
cap space, draft picks, money, luck, a good coach, and most of all a direction are factors. i think a lot of gms would give up really good players for cap space...so if isaiah can jump on that weakness, great. does francis fit that description? it remains to be seen; at least in the context of this team, this coach, this system. but just giving away cap space for talent - in itself - is not an automatically bad thing. i just question whether or not isaiah's getting the 'right' expensive players (and maybe they're available cuz they're 'not right'). but i don't think trading cap space for talent is necessarily wrong...eg
TMS
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2/27/2006  10:12 AM
good post nyny... picks & cap space don't quarantee squat in the NBA... let's focus on getting the best talent by any means necessary, & go from there.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BRIGGS
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2/27/2006  10:31 AM
I'm not comparing our situation to anyone else's in the league. Denver and Utah got burned big time by injury this year, but thats beside the point. How much more money do you think isiah needs to spend---? He needs cap space? for what? for whom? hes been able to trade ending contracts for the players he likes--taking on huge sums of cash. there is no other way to call it, when your team has the highest payroll and the worst record, there is nothing to defend. Not every team is going to win the championship, but building with players who are NOT tough isnt the way to do it. Do you believe we have tough players? I mean Zeke has spent 500mm$ in 2.5 years--how many tough guys do we have? how many over-rated talents to we have? hes had more transactions than 20 GMs put together in the last 2.5


this is a ludicrous post, trying to use other teams as examples of ineptitude, when denying this disaster--we have no excuses here --- we did not lose nene and marcus camby or carlos boozer and those teams have 1/3 of our payroll ONE THIRD! they work at a tremenoud disadvantage---you would think with 500mm in salries taken in since hes been here there would be a semblence of something--we have NOTHING
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Nalod
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2/27/2006  10:34 AM
All teams phuch up.

Denver drafted both Skita and Nene with little results so far.

PHX traded Kidd for Marbury. Then recovered after eating a bad season.

The Rockets are dreadful given the talent.

Lakes traded Shaq for basically Oh-Dumb and Kwame.

Orlando a player gone Awol!

Atlanta, the list is long.

Portland is a mess. A very young mess.

Celts have been a mess. Toronto is back on the right track, but got fleeced with Vince.

Minny, a mess.

Warriors on Paper are impressive.

Cavs got Lebron. No genious there.

Pacers are unlucky. Utah unachieveing? Over pay for Booze?

Clips are suddely smart?

Seattle is nothing. Sacremento is in transition.

Bulls rebuilding for years. Milwaukee is coming on after years of nothing.

What is needed: Luck or Patience.


jaydh
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2/27/2006  10:47 AM
Posted by Nalod:

What is needed: Luck or Patience.

both. we've just had so much bad luck. one being JYD. he would have provided very good D at the 3&4 if he didnt have to retire. that alone would have made our team much better.
martin
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2/27/2006  10:49 AM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Nalod:

What is needed: Luck or Patience.

both. we've just had so much bad luck. one being JYD. he would have provided very good D at the 3&4 if he didnt have to retire. that alone would have made our team much better.

add Houston and Dice to that bad luck list.
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Swishfm3
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2/27/2006  11:22 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I'm not comparing our situation to anyone else's in the league. Denver and Utah got burned big time by injury this year, but thats beside the point. How much more money do you think isiah needs to spend---? He needs cap space? for what? for whom? hes been able to trade ending contracts for the players he likes--taking on huge sums of cash. there is no other way to call it, when your team has the highest payroll and the worst record, there is nothing to defend. Not every team is going to win the championship, but building with players who are NOT tough isnt the way to do it. Do you believe we have tough players? I mean Zeke has spent 500mm$ in 2.5 years--how many tough guys do we have? how many over-rated talents to we have? hes had more transactions than 20 GMs put together in the last 2.5


this is a ludicrous post, trying to use other teams as examples of ineptitude, when denying this disaster--we have no excuses here --- we did not lose nene and marcus camby or carlos boozer and those teams have 1/3 of our payroll ONE THIRD! they work at a tremenoud disadvantage---you would think with 500mm in salries taken in since hes been here there would be a semblence of something--we have NOTHING

I think the point is there is no guarantee way to build a Championship. it's pointless to cry about Draft picks, salary cap or trading for all-star talent.
TMS
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2/27/2006  11:30 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I'm not comparing our situation to anyone else's in the league. Denver and Utah got burned big time by injury this year, but thats beside the point. How much more money do you think isiah needs to spend---? He needs cap space? for what? for whom? hes been able to trade ending contracts for the players he likes--taking on huge sums of cash. there is no other way to call it, when your team has the highest payroll and the worst record, there is nothing to defend. Not every team is going to win the championship, but building with players who are NOT tough isnt the way to do it. Do you believe we have tough players? I mean Zeke has spent 500mm$ in 2.5 years--how many tough guys do we have? how many over-rated talents to we have? hes had more transactions than 20 GMs put together in the last 2.5


this is a ludicrous post, trying to use other teams as examples of ineptitude, when denying this disaster--we have no excuses here --- we did not lose nene and marcus camby or carlos boozer and those teams have 1/3 of our payroll ONE THIRD! they work at a tremenoud disadvantage---you would think with 500mm in salries taken in since hes been here there would be a semblence of something--we have NOTHING


seems to me a week ago you were all in favor of the Francis trade.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BRIGGS
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2/27/2006  11:39 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I'm not comparing our situation to anyone else's in the league. Denver and Utah got burned big time by injury this year, but thats beside the point. How much more money do you think isiah needs to spend---? He needs cap space? for what? for whom? hes been able to trade ending contracts for the players he likes--taking on huge sums of cash. there is no other way to call it, when your team has the highest payroll and the worst record, there is nothing to defend. Not every team is going to win the championship, but building with players who are NOT tough isnt the way to do it. Do you believe we have tough players? I mean Zeke has spent 500mm$ in 2.5 years--how many tough guys do we have? how many over-rated talents to we have? hes had more transactions than 20 GMs put together in the last 2.5


this is a ludicrous post, trying to use other teams as examples of ineptitude, when denying this disaster--we have no excuses here --- we did not lose nene and marcus camby or carlos boozer and those teams have 1/3 of our payroll ONE THIRD! they work at a tremenoud disadvantage---you would think with 500mm in salries taken in since hes been here there would be a semblence of something--we have NOTHING


seems to me a week ago you were all in favor of the Francis trade.

What does Francis have to do with this?
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fishmike
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2/27/2006  11:53 AM
I can say with great certainty that nobody has ever assembled a great team and certainly not a championship team by taking every other team's cast off unwanted players and stuck them all together. Also all the great teams have had strong defenders as well. Do we even have one? Malik?
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TMS
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2/27/2006  11:56 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

What does Francis have to do with this?

because you're harping on all the extra money Isiah's taken on in his deals... you didn't have a problem w/it when we were discussing the Francis deal last week... i thought it was all about gathering tradeable assets? isn't that what you were saying a few days ago?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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2/27/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I can say with great certainty that nobody has ever assembled a great team and certainly not a championship team by taking every other team's cast off unwanted players and stuck them all together. Also all the great teams have had strong defenders as well. Do we even have one? Malik?

DET took on Chauncey Billups, a cast off from Philly... they took on Rasheed, a cast off from Portland... they took on Big Ben, an unproven raw talent from Orlando... they combined those guys w/castoffs from other teams like Elden Campbell, Lindsey Hunter, Chucky Atkins, Mike James & Darvin Ham & won themselves a championship... it can be done, though in support of what you said as well, that team was built on the premise of strong defense, which ours is clearly not.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BRIGGS
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2/27/2006  12:02 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by BRIGGS:

What does Francis have to do with this?

because you're harping on all the extra money Isiah's taken on in his deals... you didn't have a problem w/it when we were discussing the Francis deal last week... i thought it was all about gathering tradeable assets? isn't that what you were saying a few days ago?



I have no problem with the steve francis trade, i mean who would? compare it to what we gave up for curry or marbury. we have 0 for a 2G we had a need and getting steve francis for nothing makes sense--spending 17mm on jalen rose? no sense unless it was toronto's pick. as a fan i dont care anymore because we got something, but really it was a crp deal UNLESS the pick ended up top 10 or so which it wont.

right now id be out trying to shop marbury crawford Q and Curry and thats all. No Kenyon Martin's no al harrington--i need to rid myself of this litter box and I dont want isiah doing it
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Nalod
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2/27/2006  12:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I can say with great certainty that nobody has ever assembled a great team and certainly not a championship team by taking every other team's cast off unwanted players and stuck them all together.

The statistical probablity goes up with each attempt! The more we try it, the more likely we will succeed.

We will lead a new generation of teams! Not by chemistry, not by blowing it up, not buy free agency, and not thru the draft. "Starphuchonmics"!

Here is how it works: we depete the league of talent to the point our team would win!

Its evil, but effective!



tkf
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2/27/2006  12:09 PM
Posted by Nalod:

All teams phuch up.

Denver drafted both Skita and Nene with little results so far.

PHX traded Kidd for Marbury. Then recovered after eating a bad season.

The Rockets are dreadful given the talent.

Lakes traded Shaq for basically Oh-Dumb and Kwame.

Orlando a player gone Awol!

Atlanta, the list is long.

Portland is a mess. A very young mess.

Celts have been a mess. Toronto is back on the right track, but got fleeced with Vince.

Minny, a mess.

Warriors on Paper are impressive.

Cavs got Lebron. No genious there.

Pacers are unlucky. Utah unachieveing? Over pay for Booze?

Clips are suddely smart?

Seattle is nothing. Sacremento is in transition.

Bulls rebuilding for years. Milwaukee is coming on after years of nothing.

What is needed: Luck or Patience.


so is it fair to say, Baron Davis leaves the hornets, they get a ton better, and he goes to GS and they still underachieve? hmmmmmm

Marbs got killed for this, why not baron. Look back, I said the warriors do this every year, finish a season strong and underachieve the next season...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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Shouldn't Denver & Utah be elite teams right now.
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