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Full blown rebuild......it's just prime time to do it
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EnySpree
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1/20/2006  3:13 PM
I stated this in another thread but I can see this needed to be in a more serious thread.....

Marbs is wasting the better years of his career playing with the Knicks.....Marbs is not a dumb player, Marbs is what he is......he's 20 and 8. He needs to be on a team that is primed a ready for a Championship run. With the way the Knicks are going he will be 30 something before they actually start winning.

That is not fair to Marbs. How can the Knicks win with the team they have? Simple......They have to trade the chips they have to get some A+++ league talent to play with Marbs.....No one is just going to take Penny's contract and give you a Pierce or a Artest or a Ray Allen or whoever......it just doesn't make sense to sit on a dream like that when the season is already in the ****ter.

Don't wanna trade the kids? Why? Brown didn't want to play them for almost 30 games?!?!?! It takes AD to get suspended 5 games to put Frye in the starting line-up!?!?!?! The mentality of the Knicks as an organization is just warped if anything.....I'm tired of the mind games.....

Ride or Die!!! Either trade what we got and try to get some reinforcements or just ship off Marbs and try to blow the bottom off the cap for this off season.

Idea? Trade Marbs to Memphis with Jerome James for Lorenzen Wright and Eddie Jones and maybe some draft picks! Talk about blowing up the ****ing cap!

AD, Penny, Lorenzen.......gone....two max salaries and one half max salary gone!!!! Be done with it!!! The Knicks would be saving money anyway from the AD, Penny and Lorenzen contracts so just Buyout Eddie and Taylor!!!!
If you talk to Eddie Jones about a buyout(which he would probably be begging for) then you can add another max salary to the equation Taylor still could help a team that needs him.
The Knicks salary cap would have a huge hole in it......so big that they would have to actually sign players to have a 15 man roster!

In return? Play the Fu Ck ing kids!!!!! That's the end of it!!!

PF Channing/Lee
SF Woods/Ariza
C Curry/Butler
PG Nate/
SG Craw

Find a new home for Q in the off-season.....etc....

Isiah already sold the draft pick to chicago but Brown already sold the season so WTF????

"I think you better let it go(let it go baby) looks like another love TKO!!!" - Teddy P.



Knicks need to turn out the lights and just light a candle while their at it!!!


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fishmike
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1/20/2006  3:22 PM
I would do it for a 2 year window except with no pick this year and no shot at a top 5 in 07 its no longer feasable.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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1/20/2006  3:28 PM
i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.
bigbeast
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1/20/2006  3:30 PM
Marbs to Memphis isn't a bad idea. Problem is I doubt West takes on that huge salary.

Knicks have 2 options. Either trade the kids, which are essentially the Knicks only assets and try to build a team around Marbury that is still relatively young but can win now, or move Marbury and try to get younger and closer to the cap. Problem is, Marbury's contract is near impossible to move, so Knicks may have to move the kids.
Think about it, Lee and Robinson are role players at best. Frye is the only one with potential, but he is no sure-bet to be a star. Defensively, Frye and Curry just doesn't work together. Neither are shot-blockers, neither are good help defenders and neither are strong rebounders.

I would love to build around the kids, but with no money or draft picks, it'll be a tough task for Zeke to pull off.

As I said in another thread, if could get Artest, Chandler and a lotto pick for Frye, Lee, Ariza, AD, Penny and the spurs #1 pick, i'd do it and take my chances

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-20-2006 3:32 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Killa4luv
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1/20/2006  3:31 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.

I agree. I would also add to part 1 to try and acquire some picks.
islesfan
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1/20/2006  3:45 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.

Problems with 1) That's something that should have been done from Day 1 but since then Isiah has traded away 3 of our next 4 #1 picks and has put ourselves even further over the salary cap.

Problems with 2) Isiah's history with trades and signing players with the MLE have left a great deal to be desired. And is Steph really the type of player that you build around? Nothing in his entire career suggests that he is.

This is what you get when you just make moves for the sake of making moves without having a solid plan in place. You get stuck in no man's land and you're stuck in purgatory where the best you can hope for is mediocrity. Gee, where have I heard that before.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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1/20/2006  3:55 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:

i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.

Problems with 1) That's something that should have been done from Day 1 but since then Isiah has traded away 3 of our next 4 #1 picks and has put ourselves even further over the salary cap.

Problems with 2) Isiah's history with trades and signing players with the MLE have left a great deal to be desired. And is Steph really the type of player that you build around? Nothing in his entire career suggests that he is.

This is what you get when you just make moves for the sake of making moves without having a solid plan in place. You get stuck in no man's land and you're stuck in purgatory where the best you can hope for is mediocrity. Gee, where have I heard that before.

i think it's more evident than ever that rebuilding should've been the mantra for the past few years. what we saw last night were a bunch of kids that are light years away from being in the pistons league...and you know what? that's ok. that's what they're supposed to look like. but it also solidifies the fact that steph has no place here as well. isiah's history in trades is checkered at best. so yes, there is a legitimate fear that no matter what we try to do, it may still not end up working out.

building around steph has historically proven to fail. but building with him could've worked if we brought in the right pieces that would work with his skills. and we didn't do that either. so in essence, what have we been doing?

i think this has been the case since training camp. i think some of us are guilty of having some high expectations based on dollars spent and overvaluing the actual talent of our players, and that's making it even more confusing and frustrating. the "general" direction is going the right way, although it's not that much higher than sea level. the phrase i used ad naseum was it's time to "turn the page" and with steph in particular, he just doesn't "fit". this is exactly why. nothing has changed since training camp. nothing.

so move steph for jalen rose/kvh/or grant hill and two #1's
or move frye, nate, trevor, penny, AD for kg + wally

pick one and do it b/c that would mean we have some sort of plan in place.
TMS
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1/20/2006  4:03 PM
knicks 05/06 - ALL PATIENT

i thought the idea was to let this team grow together & gel? or have things changed so much in the past 4 games that we no longer think this can be a winning formula? just asking honestly, because i want to know why people are so down on this team after the 4 game losing streak after being so high on them after the 6 game winning streak.

personally, i'm all for a trade of the young kids for a guy like KG... that's the type of trade i would like to see if any trade is made at all... i want to avoid any lateral trades at all costs that don't net us a franchise level talent.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-20-2006 4:06 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
jaydh
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1/20/2006  4:03 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

or move frye, nate, trevor, penny, AD for kg + wally

that would be a dream come true. Minnesota would have a payroll around $25mil next season. But can they attract free agents to this team? It may take a new Minny GM, McHale getting fired, for this type of thing to happen.
djsunyc
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1/20/2006  4:07 PM
Posted by TMS:
knicks 05/06 - ALL PATIENT

i thought the idea was to let this team grow together & gel? or have things changed so much in the past 3 games that we no longer think this can be a winning formula? just asking honestly, because i want to know why people are so down on this team after the 4 game losing streak after being so high on them after the 6 game winning streak.


i've ALWAYS been a proponent for full rebuild. that's a long term process.
we are NOT in full rebuild. nothing has changed in the 4 game losing streak, nothing has changed during the 6 game winning streak and nothing has changed since october 1st.

this team can not play defense. this team has a ton of holes and is flawed. it can not sustain a legitimate winning record over a 35 game period, let along 10. only saving grace is some potential of the youngsters. there's no point in having long term expensive contracts. time to dump them.
jaydh
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1/20/2006  4:07 PM
Knicks lineup would be..

C-Curry/JJ/Butler
PF-Garnett/MoT/Rose
SF-Wally/Lee/Woods
SG-QRich/JC
PG-Steph/JC

then pickup a backup PG and we should be all set.
bigbeast
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1/20/2006  4:12 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:

i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.

Problems with 1) That's something that should have been done from Day 1 but since then Isiah has traded away 3 of our next 4 #1 picks and has put ourselves even further over the salary cap.

Problems with 2) Isiah's history with trades and signing players with the MLE have left a great deal to be desired. And is Steph really the type of player that you build around? Nothing in his entire career suggests that he is.

This is what you get when you just make moves for the sake of making moves without having a solid plan in place. You get stuck in no man's land and you're stuck in purgatory where the best you can hope for is mediocrity. Gee, where have I heard that before.

i think it's more evident than ever that rebuilding should've been the mantra for the past few years. what we saw last night were a bunch of kids that are light years away from being in the pistons league...and you know what? that's ok. that's what they're supposed to look like. but it also solidifies the fact that steph has no place here as well. isiah's history in trades is checkered at best. so yes, there is a legitimate fear that no matter what we try to do, it may still not end up working out.

building around steph has historically proven to fail. but building with him could've worked if we brought in the right pieces that would work with his skills. and we didn't do that either. so in essence, what have we been doing?

i think this has been the case since training camp. i think some of us are guilty of having some high expectations based on dollars spent and overvaluing the actual talent of our players, and that's making it even more confusing and frustrating. the "general" direction is going the right way, although it's not that much higher than sea level. the phrase i used ad naseum was it's time to "turn the page" and with steph in particular, he just doesn't "fit". this is exactly why. nothing has changed since training camp. nothing.

so move steph for jalen rose/kvh/or grant hill and two #1's
or move frye, nate, trevor, penny, AD for kg + wally

pick one and do it b/c that would mean we have some sort of plan in place.


Nate Robinson and David Lee will never be in the pistons league. They are role players. Neither of them show the potential that they will be remotely as good as Hamilton, or Billlups and the wallace Bros....... Unless you can find a team willing to take Marburys contract, (seems impossible), it might be tme to move the kids. They are the Knicks only assets


[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-20-2006 4:13 PM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-20-2006 4:19 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
BasketballJones
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1/20/2006  4:16 PM
I think the status quo is okay for now. Marbury's been playing well and he wants to be here, so it isn't really unfair to him. He knows what the deal is. Also, he has been making the players around him better recently. This might actually be a pretty good situation for him. I never thought I'd be so strongly in the Keep Marbury camp, but I am. He's been cooperating with Larry. Let's see what he can do.

I don't know what the future holds this season, but I like our team. I think we have a real nice set of developing bigs in Curry, Frye and Lee and I don't think we should trade them. I like Nate too, but I'd be willing to part with him. In fact, other than Marbury, I think the backcourt is where the Knicks could profitably make some changes. Crawford is at times brilliant but is inconsistent, as is Nate. (We don't need two guys like that.) Also, Q is a complete bust.

Now, if you can ship out Penny, Q and/or Rose for something better, or if you could do a deal to bring in Artest for expiring contracts, I'll listen to that idea. But basically I think the Knicks should stand pat.
https:// It's not so hard.
BasketballJones
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1/20/2006  4:31 PM
Also, I think we need to beware of shortcuts and "magic bullets". Dyess was supposed to be a savior, as was Marbury. On the other hand, the Knicks have had no core for several years.

Maybe, just maybe, having the very best players isn't always the answer. Maybe having a good core group of guys who work well together is. That takes time to develop. We should be more patient.

https:// It's not so hard.
attaboy2005
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1/20/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:

i've been busy today at work and haven't really gotten a chance to make a long tired post but i think the knicks' brass need to make a serious decision about what EXACTLY they want to do with this team. and really, at the end of the day the choice should be one of two things:

1. go full rebuild and trade steph for deals that expire next year

OR

2. go and trade the expiring deals and some of the young kids for some veteran players to try to win WITH steph

going half assed on both attempts will lead to nothing more but frustration.

Problems with 1) That's something that should have been done from Day 1 but since then Isiah has traded away 3 of our next 4 #1 picks and has put ourselves even further over the salary cap.

Problems with 2) Isiah's history with trades and signing players with the MLE have left a great deal to be desired. And is Steph really the type of player that you build around? Nothing in his entire career suggests that he is.

This is what you get when you just make moves for the sake of making moves without having a solid plan in place. You get stuck in no man's land and you're stuck in purgatory where the best you can hope for is mediocrity. Gee, where have I heard that before.

i think it's more evident than ever that rebuilding should've been the mantra for the past few years. what we saw last night were a bunch of kids that are light years away from being in the pistons league...and you know what? that's ok. that's what they're supposed to look like. but it also solidifies the fact that steph has no place here as well. isiah's history in trades is checkered at best. so yes, there is a legitimate fear that no matter what we try to do, it may still not end up working out.

building around steph has historically proven to fail. but building with him could've worked if we brought in the right pieces that would work with his skills. and we didn't do that either. so in essence, what have we been doing?

i think this has been the case since training camp. i think some of us are guilty of having some high expectations based on dollars spent and overvaluing the actual talent of our players, and that's making it even more confusing and frustrating. the "general" direction is going the right way, although it's not that much higher than sea level. the phrase i used ad naseum was it's time to "turn the page" and with steph in particular, he just doesn't "fit". this is exactly why. nothing has changed since training camp. nothing.

so move steph for jalen rose/kvh/or grant hill and two #1's
or move frye, nate, trevor, penny, AD for kg + wally

pick one and do it b/c that would mean we have some sort of plan in place.


Nate Robinson and David Lee will never be in the pistons league. They are role players. Neither of them show the potential that they will be remotely as good as Hamilton, or Billlups and the wallace Bros....... Unless you can find a team willing to take Marburys contract, (seems impossible), it might be tme to move the kids. They are the Knicks only assets


[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-20-2006 4:13 PM]

[Edited by - bigbeast on 01-20-2006 4:19 PM]

Your way to harsh on these kids, alot of NBA people feel that Frye along with Lee and Nate will be better than people like you think, so I would listen to them first before anybody else.
The thing I don't really like is that fact you make a role player sound so bad, like it's a illness or something, not everyone can be a Star, and teams need guys who know their
roles on the team and don't make waves like alot of Stars do, any Coach would love to have guys like Nate and Lee on their team for those reason alone.

jaydh
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1/20/2006  4:35 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Also, I think we need to beware of shortcuts and "magic bullets". Dyess was supposed to be a savior, as was Marbury. On the other hand, the Knicks have had no core for several years.

Maybe, just maybe, having the very best players isn't always the answer. Maybe having a good core group of guys who work well together is. That takes time to develop. We should be more patient.

how is curry/garnett/marbs not a good core? with that kind of team, good players would be willing to take pay cuts(signing the MLE) to play with them, just like payton and malone did with LA, payton&zo did with miami, and NVE&finley did with the spurs.
codeunknown
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1/20/2006  5:07 PM
I don't have time for a complete reply but - I would not trade Steph now - Fishmike mentioned the lost picks. Not only are we deprived of our picks but its likely that our top pick goes to a team that isn't even that bad - like Chicago or Utah. We can't help the league become more competitive to our detriment.

We are better off trading Marbury for expiring deals in two years at around summer 07 - when hopefully he's healthy and producing for a winning team. Even then, he will be only 30 years old and his value should not have plummeted too significantly -it may even increase with a winning squad and Brown's influence. At that point, the cap space yield would be immediate, we keep the pick in 08 and extra picks would be a bonus.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
franco12
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1/20/2006  5:12 PM
I think this year is grin and bear it and hope that next year Larry has either fled town or decided to stick with a core rotation of players that play from day one.

If we're not going well next season, move Marbury- any displeasure over swapping picks with the Bulls should be tempered by whatever talent we get in exchange (a pick at least) and cap flexibility.
SlimPack
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1/20/2006  5:58 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

I don't have time for a complete reply but - I would not trade Steph now - Fishmike mentioned the lost picks. Not only are we deprived of our picks but its likely that our top pick goes to a team that isn't even that bad - like Chicago or Utah. We can't help the league become more competitive to our detriment.

We are better off trading Marbury for expiring deals in two years at around summer 07 - when hopefully he's healthy and producing for a winning team. Even then, he will be only 30 years old and his value should not have plummeted too significantly -it may even increase with a winning squad and Brown's influence. At that point, the cap space yield would be immediate, we keep the pick in 08 and extra picks would be a bonus.

I guess this makes the most sense, but does this mean that we do nothing right now?

[Edited by - slimpack on 01-20-2006 6:01 PM]
bigbeast
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1/20/2006  6:01 PM
attaboy-
Of course you need role players to win. Thats not my argument. What I'm saying is, with no money and no lotto picks, where are the Knicks going to get a star to complement (Lee, Nate and Frye) These guys are supporting players. But there is no one here for them to support, and there seems to be no way of getting one
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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