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Nalod
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1/19/2006  2:57 PM
We had all three rookies playing down the stretch. That is telling. Losing sucked, but the kids are learning.

Lee is a rebounding machine.

It would appear to me that after the Dice Disaster we were saving our assets and not doing any stupid deals. Isiah cashed in those chips, and I think Dolan wanted this deal done. It was already being pondered when he took over for Laydog.

I would have liked a full rebuild and to have blown the mother up!

Despite Eddy looking awful last nite, I am hopeful!
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martin
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1/19/2006  3:00 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

martin...if we can't make a deal without overpaying, we're better off not making a deal.

patience is not virtuous with isiah.

i'm telling you, we would STILL have at least 4 young players on board if we didn't make the steph deal (our 2004 #1 and 2, our 2005 #1 and 2). and with isiah's drafting skill, they would be 4 solid young players that would be part of the core of this team.

but that's all hindsight.

I don't get this logic, and maybe it's cause you have your years wrong. We have our 2005 #1 in place, and we traded the 2004 #1 which Utah selected Kirk Humphries. Maybe if Isiah gets it right he selects one of Josh/JR Smith, who are both still about 2-3 years away from being more than OK starters. And for this you still don't want Marb? You need a good mix of vets and young to grow a young potential team.

You know what? Isiah has been SUPREMELY good/lucky with his drafts. What if those draft picks that you site we had all bombed?

Bird in the hand man.
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Silverfuel
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1/19/2006  3:08 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

martin...if we can't make a deal without overpaying, we're better off not making a deal.

patience is not virtuous with isiah.

i'm telling you, we would STILL have at least 4 young players on board if we didn't make the steph deal (our 2004 #1 and 2, our 2005 #1 and 2). and with isiah's drafting skill, they would be 4 solid young players that would be part of the core of this team.

but that's all hindsight.

I don't get this logic, and maybe it's cause you have your years wrong. We have our 2005 #1 in place, and we traded the 2004 #1 which Utah selected Kirk Humphries. Maybe if Isiah gets it right he selects one of Josh/JR Smith, who are both still about 2-3 years away from being more than OK starters. And for this you still don't want Marb? You need a good mix of vets and young to grow a young potential team.

You know what? Isiah has been SUPREMELY good/lucky with his drafts. What if those draft picks that you site we had all bombed?

Bird in the hand man.
good post
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djsunyc
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1/19/2006  3:08 PM
my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

again, we went and got steph but we didn't get the players to complement steph. if we're committed to steph, we're better off going off and getting kg right now b/c steph will not win big with frye, curry b/c they ain't ready nor will be ready for another few years. and at that point, i'd be very concerned about steph's stamina and health.

i'm not blaming this on stephon. i just find fault in isiah in bringing in steph without a true plan in place to win with steph. we kept talking about that steph/h20 backcourt. why? b/c steph would penetrate and kick it out to h20 for easy jumpers. then why didn't isiah find one f'n jumpshooter to complement steph during his tenure here?

combine that with the length of steph's contract, we are now under pressure to win while steph is here or we have to move him. with the moves since this past trade deadline, do you think we're trying to build a winner with steph which includes a lineup of 2 rookies, a raw 23 year old center with health and motivation problems, and a fossil at PF? what exactly are we trying to do? and if it's rebuilding, then steph should be moved b/c there's no need to have a contract like that on the books, ESPECIALLY if we moved picks and limiting our ability to get players here on our terms.
bigpimpin
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1/19/2006  3:14 PM
I remember coming into this forum, and talking about how I felt Lampe wasn't anything special. And I got attacked in ways I have never seen before. I should say, assaulted.

I seriously considered bringing up criminal charges against some of the posters -- tkf, to cut to the chase.

Sad thing about it is, there are still some posters who believe this guy has meaningful talent. Sure, he can hit a 3 from the arc. But who can't?

I can't remember the name of the poster who would always post about how this kid was 7'2 and growing. Great! Let's put some Christmas decorations on him, and presents underneath him then!
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
Rich
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1/19/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

again, we went and got steph but we didn't get the players to complement steph. if we're committed to steph, we're better off going off and getting kg right now b/c steph will not win big with frye, curry b/c they ain't ready nor will be ready for another few years. and at that point, i'd be very concerned about steph's stamina and health.

i'm not blaming this on stephon. i just find fault in isiah in bringing in steph without a true plan in place to win with steph. we kept talking about that steph/h20 backcourt. why? b/c steph would penetrate and kick it out to h20 for easy jumpers. then why didn't isiah find one f'n jumpshooter to complement steph during his tenure here?

combine that with the length of steph's contract, we are now under pressure to win while steph is here or we have to move him. with the moves since this past trade deadline, do you think we're trying to build a winner with steph which includes a lineup of 2 rookies, a raw 23 year old center with health and motivation problems, and a fossil at PF? what exactly are we trying to do? and if it's rebuilding, then steph should be moved b/c there's no need to have a contract like that on the books, ESPECIALLY if we moved picks and limiting our ability to get players here on our terms.


I think it's pretty obvious that when Dolan hired Isiah, he told him that the primary goal was to create a buzz at the Garden again, and to make the playoffs ASAP. Given that mission statement, trading for Marbury made a lot of sense to Isiah, particularly since Layden had attempted to make the deal prior to being fired.
martin
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1/19/2006  4:02 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

I still don't get it. You would rather have Deng, Frye, Ariza than Marbury, Frye, Ariza? Cause that's what we are talking about.

Chicago went that route and so has Atlanta. To get better faster you need a mix of really good vets with your young pups.

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fishmike
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1/19/2006  4:06 PM
Exactly what DJ said. I like Marbury and am very happy we have him, but paying what we did for him put us in the 90's mode of adding guys that can only help now and making short sighted decisions. Martin your right... the Suns saw Marbury's value to the Knicks, which was substantially different than his value to the rest of the league. Why is that? The Sheed/Davis trades were made by dumb GMs. How do we know ours isnt? There is no doubt the talent is upgraded here but was the cost worth it? Its like overpaying to get in a card game when the deck is stacked against you.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this team. I do hope that Marbury, Curry, Frye, et al turns out to be championship caliber talent under LB. The flipside is Larry does his coaching magic and squeeks 45-48 wins out of this group for the next 4 years and the Garden goes into the "one player away" mode that they are so good at and we are looking at another decade of mediocity.

Guys like Bonn will always be pumping the great young core of Lampe, Dermarr (the free first rounder) Johnson and Milos. Oh.. I mean Sweetney, Ariza and Jackie B. Oh... I mean Curry, Frye, Nate and Lee. Now I will be fair and say that last group is certainly the best, but its also been the most expensive and the ability to improve on is compramised by our loss of 2 #1s, 2 #2s and the Chi swap in the next 5 years. I hope like hell the eggs Isiah put in this basket turn out to be golden.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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1/19/2006  4:12 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

I still don't get it. You would rather have Deng, Frye, Ariza than Marbury, Frye, Ariza? Cause that's what we are talking about.

Chicago went that route and so has Atlanta. To get better faster you need a mix of really good vets with your young pups.

yup, b/c in 07 we will have cap room. ny with cap room is a good thing. if we had cap room two summer ago, we have kobe or shaq. if we have cap room in 07, we could end up with lebron, dirk, melo, or something like that.

it's not about getting better faster, it's about getting better for the long haul.

even if we went out and made a sign and trade for a guy like redd or ray allen, i would understand that even tho i wouldn't agree with it b/c you're complementing steph with a shooter in the backcourt. it's an actual plan.

isiah's plan right now, to me, is confusing and i'm very worried that we're going to end up with jalen rose and guys like ratliff in another month.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-19-2006 4:18 PM]
martin
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1/19/2006  4:36 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

I still don't get it. You would rather have Deng, Frye, Ariza than Marbury, Frye, Ariza? Cause that's what we are talking about.

Chicago went that route and so has Atlanta. To get better faster you need a mix of really good vets with your young pups.

yup, b/c in 07 we will have cap room. ny with cap room is a good thing. if we had cap room two summer ago, we have kobe or shaq. if we have cap room in 07, we could end up with lebron, dirk, melo, or something like that.

it's not about getting better faster, it's about getting better for the long haul.

even if we went out and made a sign and trade for a guy like redd or ray allen, i would understand that even tho i wouldn't agree with it b/c you're complementing steph with a shooter in the backcourt. it's an actual plan.

isiah's plan right now, to me, is confusing and i'm very worried that we're going to end up with jalen rose and guys like ratliff in another month.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-19-2006 4:18 PM]


DJ, If Dolan came to you 2+ years ago and said I will pay you big $$$ to be GM of the Knicks and I don't want you to sit around and jack around until 2007 and just draft players cause I want to be better immediately, what would you do? Cause I think that's the parameters Isiah was hired under.

In the world of sports you get about 1 shot to be GM of a team, and 99% of the time you have about 1 season to start proving your worth, not 4+ years and a hope and a prayer of landing LeBron.
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islesfan
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1/19/2006  4:49 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

I still don't get it. You would rather have Deng, Frye, Ariza than Marbury, Frye, Ariza? Cause that's what we are talking about.

Chicago went that route and so has Atlanta. To get better faster you need a mix of really good vets with your young pups.

yup, b/c in 07 we will have cap room. ny with cap room is a good thing. if we had cap room two summer ago, we have kobe or shaq. if we have cap room in 07, we could end up with lebron, dirk, melo, or something like that.

it's not about getting better faster, it's about getting better for the long haul.

even if we went out and made a sign and trade for a guy like redd or ray allen, i would understand that even tho i wouldn't agree with it b/c you're complementing steph with a shooter in the backcourt. it's an actual plan.

isiah's plan right now, to me, is confusing and i'm very worried that we're going to end up with jalen rose and guys like ratliff in another month.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-19-2006 4:18 PM]


DJ, If Dolan came to you 2+ years ago and said I will pay you big $$$ to be GM of the Knicks and I don't want you to sit around and jack around until 2007 and just draft players cause I want to be better immediately, what would you do? Cause I think that's the parameters Isiah was hired under.

In the world of sports you get about 1 shot to be GM of a team, and 99% of the time you have about 1 season to start proving your worth, not 4+ years and a hope and a prayer of landing LeBron.

If you're willing to take the job under those conditions then every decision you make is still on you. Your owner might have given you those directions but you're still culpable for the moves that you make. I hate Dolan as much as the next guy but it's ridiculous to absolve a GM for moves that he's made and blame them on the owner instead.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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1/19/2006  4:52 PM
i know what you're saying. i understand what the situation was like...BUT...i would have AT LEAST waited a few more weeks before making such a huge $100+ mil deal for steph and penny. dolan, to me, knows nothing about bball. he's just a guy with an open checkbook. this is all on mills/isiah. if he said, jim "let's wait just a little bit to see what else is out there or at least wait till the summer" - dolan would've said "sure". i'm convinced of that. after 4 years of ineptitude with layden, you figure he could've been convinced to wait another 4 months.
TMS
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1/19/2006  5:04 PM
Isiah got rid of Lampe because he didn't like what he saw from his work ethic in practice... sounds like he wasn't just BSing to cover himself on that one.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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1/19/2006  5:08 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i know what you're saying. i understand what the situation was like...BUT...i would have AT LEAST waited a few more weeks before making such a huge $100+ mil deal for steph and penny. dolan, to me, knows nothing about bball. he's just a guy with an open checkbook. this is all on mills/isiah. if he said, jim "let's wait just a little bit to see what else is out there or at least wait till the summer" - dolan would've said "sure". i'm convinced of that. after 4 years of ineptitude with layden, you figure he could've been convinced to wait another 4 months.

or... Dolan was so frustrated with Layden you fired and and told Isiah to act pronto.
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martin
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1/19/2006  5:10 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

my thinking is this, if we don't make the steph trade, we don't make the playoffs. so our 2004 #1 is a lottery pick - probably end up with deng or iguodala. along with our #2 that year.

we have our own 2005 #1 (which wasn't traded away). so right there, that's 3 draft picks. if isiah did his due dilligence like he usually does, then it's not crazy to say we don't have 3 solid rookies including at least one lottery pick.

I still don't get it. You would rather have Deng, Frye, Ariza than Marbury, Frye, Ariza? Cause that's what we are talking about.

Chicago went that route and so has Atlanta. To get better faster you need a mix of really good vets with your young pups.

yup, b/c in 07 we will have cap room. ny with cap room is a good thing. if we had cap room two summer ago, we have kobe or shaq. if we have cap room in 07, we could end up with lebron, dirk, melo, or something like that.

it's not about getting better faster, it's about getting better for the long haul.

even if we went out and made a sign and trade for a guy like redd or ray allen, i would understand that even tho i wouldn't agree with it b/c you're complementing steph with a shooter in the backcourt. it's an actual plan.

isiah's plan right now, to me, is confusing and i'm very worried that we're going to end up with jalen rose and guys like ratliff in another month.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-19-2006 4:18 PM]


DJ, If Dolan came to you 2+ years ago and said I will pay you big $$$ to be GM of the Knicks and I don't want you to sit around and jack around until 2007 and just draft players cause I want to be better immediately, what would you do? Cause I think that's the parameters Isiah was hired under.

In the world of sports you get about 1 shot to be GM of a team, and 99% of the time you have about 1 season to start proving your worth, not 4+ years and a hope and a prayer of landing LeBron.

If you're willing to take the job under those conditions then every decision you make is still on you. Your owner might have given you those directions but you're still culpable for the moves that you make. I hate Dolan as much as the next guy but it's ridiculous to absolve a GM for moves that he's made and blame them on the owner instead.

hey I agree that Isiah still has to live with those decisions, and I am not absolving him for anything, but I am pointing out some real possibilities that may exist.
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SlimPack
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1/19/2006  7:31 PM
If dolan thought that IT or any GM, could turn the overpaid underacheiving crap Isiah inherited into a winning team immediately, then someone should have just explained the game of basketball to him, cuase thats impossible as IT has proved. I dont know exactly what dolan said to isiah but are you telling me that letting contracts expire and acquiring young players with a clear plan to improve in the future was unacceptable, but 125 million for 13-24 is?





[Edited by - slimpack on 01-19-2006 7:33 PM]
Bonn1997
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1/19/2006  7:34 PM
Guys like Bonn will always be pumping the great young core of Lampe, Dermarr (the free first rounder) Johnson and Milos. Oh.. I mean Sweetney, Ariza and Jackie B. Oh... I mean Curry, Frye, Nate and Lee. Now I will be fair and say that last group is certainly the best
You finally get it! We had no young core before Isiah and despite making mistakes, he has gradually improved the young core. That's really all "guys like Bonn" are saying.

the ability to improve on is compramised

If Isiah doesn't make any moves that improve our young core by this trade deadline, I'll say you're right. If he gets another player that can contribute for many years and only at the cost of Dolan's dollars, maybe you'll see that the team has the necessary flexibility to continue building around its core of players.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-19-2006 7:35 PM]
martin
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1/19/2006  7:39 PM
Posted by SlimPack:

If dolan thought that IT or any GM, could turn the overpaid underacheiving crap Isiah inherited into a winning team immediately, then someone should have just explained the game of basketball to him, cuase thats impossible as IT has proved. I dont know exactly what dolan said to isiah but are you telling me that letting contracts expire and acquiring young players with a clear plan to improve in the future was unacceptable, but 125 million for 13-24 is?
[Edited by - slimpack on 01-19-2006 7:33 PM]

you think Dolan cares about the difference between 13-24 and 24-13? Maybe. Think he cares about the difference between $$ and $$$$$$$$$$$$? Yup. And that's his angle.
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Elite
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1/19/2006  7:49 PM
who?
SlimPack
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1/19/2006  7:56 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by SlimPack:

If dolan thought that IT or any GM, could turn the overpaid underacheiving crap Isiah inherited into a winning team immediately, then someone should have just explained the game of basketball to him, cuase thats impossible as IT has proved. I dont know exactly what dolan said to isiah but are you telling me that letting contracts expire and acquiring young players with a clear plan to improve in the future was unacceptable, but 125 million for 13-24 is?
[Edited by - slimpack on 01-19-2006 7:33 PM]

you think Dolan cares about the difference between 13-24 and 24-13? Maybe. Think he cares about the difference between $$ and $$$$$$$$$$$$? Yup. And that's his angle.

Im starting to hate dolan. oh well my thing is that I dont know how Isiah will be able to win a championship this way, the only talent we can get is flawed talent, at the cost of adding major salary and draft picks. I think there's a limit to how good we can be like that even with isiahs good drafting abilites. I dont think there will ever come a point where we will compete for a title in the future becuase I dont see where we'll get the legitemate talent to do so, detroit is a rare example of how 5 fringe all-stars can win a championship but I dont see how we will even be able to get THAT.
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