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Whose worse Scott LAyden or Ernie Grunfeld???
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WOODMANnYk
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7/21/2002  10:12 AM
In my opinion, the reason why the knicks are in this position is mainly Ernie BUMfeld's fault. Look, Layden has made a few mistakes himself but at least we can see him resolving some of the issues. BUMfeld didn't have to aquire Lj when we already knew LJ's back was done and his bloated contract wasn't going nowhere. We all know LJ had an important role on the team as a leader but his contract was a killer. By the way, we're still paying for that contract right now. The Oakley/Camby deal!! That was a stupid trade cause they traded their enforcer in the frontcourt and got someone sooo soft, he couldn't even play at least 70 games. Charlie ward! When charlie was a free-agent after the '98 strike, Ernie BUmfeld desperately signed him to a 6 yr deal with a trade ticker involved. So if charlie gets traded, he automatically gets 15% increase in the salary. Dum move!! Usually when BuMfeld gets a player in a trade, that player has 2 yrs left in his career but Layden usually gets players that are young or in their prime. CHris DUdley was one of the worse players in the league with no offensive skills whatever. BUmfeld realized the time when ewing broke his wrist so he decided to keep Dudley as a security blanket to play behind ewing but FOR 28M FOR 4 YRS, THATS CRAZY!! What about signing ewing to a 4 yr 65million, very stupid on Bumfeld part. Ewing had sustain multiple injuries and various operations. His game was slowing down. No way in the world, knicks shoulda gave him 4 yrs especially at the age of 34. As for Layden, his mistake was giving Allan 100m, getting Shandon,eisley and weatherspoon to long term contracts and possibly for not keeping childs til his contract runs out. I haven't seen Bumfeld make one brilliant move as Knicks GM. LAyden made three so far. Resigning LAtrell, picking up McDyess and having young players such as postell and Frank W. in the draft. By the way, getting Latrell in the beginning was a Checketts move and BUMfeld had nothing to do with it.. Also, understand that when Bumfeld was g.m, the knicks had more room to work with regarding salaries but now it's a bit difficult for layden since the economic structure of the NBA is different.
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john44
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7/21/2002  11:30 AM
I think Gunfeld did a great job with the knicks. The Camby trade wasnt bad at all oakley was getting old and camby was the reason why we beat Indiana the year we went to the finals. Also what about the Sprewell trade, that was one of the best trades in Knicks history. We traded nothing at all for him Starks was washed up Terry Cummings and Chris Mills non of them are even close to being an all-star. What about when he first signed Houston he turned out to be a bargan after his first year here. Or the small moves he made like When he signed buck williams.
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WOODMANnYk
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7/21/2002  11:46 AM
Posted by john44:

I think Gunfeld did a great job with the knicks. The Camby trade wasnt bad at all oakley was getting old and camby was the reason why we beat Indiana the year we went to the finals. Also what about the Sprewell trade, that was one of the best trades in Knicks history. We traded nothing at all for him Starks was washed up Terry Cummings and Chris Mills non of them are even close to being an all-star. What about when he first signed Houston he turned out to be a bargan after his first year here. Or the small moves he made like When he signed buck williams.
As i had said earlier, getting spree was a checketts move, not BumsFeld. Grunfeld has not done a great job cause if that was the case then why is he with milwaukee??? You noticed ever since he got to milwaukee, what did he do, signs a former knick named mason who didn't do didley squat.. Oh, by the way, did milwaukee make the playoffs this yr???? I didn't think so. You're telling me signing H20 and chris childs were smart moves considering there were 10 other guards out there during that free agent period. If ou believe that was good mgmt, you'll never see Bumfeld get far with milwaukee..
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BigSm00th
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7/21/2002  12:38 PM
You seem to make all these accusations well after the trades have been made. In 3 months if McDyess gets hurt you'll be telling us all what a terrible trade it was. It's really easy to go back and look at these trades in hindsight and say "he's a bum" or what not, but gie me a break. If the Camby deal was never done, the Knics wouldn't have been able to acquire McDyess. The LJ signing provided the team with a leader since Ewing never stepped up to the challenge, and LJ carried the team in a few playoff series. They signed Ward because there were no other free agent points available and Ward had the advantage from a bargaining standpoint because he knew the Knicks needed him. Dudley was brought in to defend guys when Ewing was out, because they didn't have anyone to do that.

The Bucks didn't make the playoffs because of injury. What I'm trying to say is, don't make all these stupid accusations 3 years later, when most of them were good moves to begin with.
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nyballer
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7/21/2002  1:10 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

You seem to make all these accusations well after the trades have been made. In 3 months if McDyess gets hurt you'll be telling us all what a terrible trade it was. It's really easy to go back and look at these trades in hindsight and say "he's a bum" or what not, but gie me a break. If the Camby deal was never done, the Knics wouldn't have been able to acquire McDyess. The LJ signing provided the team with a leader since Ewing never stepped up to the challenge, and LJ carried the team in a few playoff series. They signed Ward because there were no other free agent points available and Ward had the advantage from a bargaining standpoint because he knew the Knicks needed him. Dudley was brought in to defend guys when Ewing was out, because they didn't have anyone to do that.

The Bucks didn't make the playoffs because of injury. What I'm trying to say is, don't make all these stupid accusations 3 years later, when most of them were good moves to begin with.

I agree completely...and if you want one brilliant move that Grunfield made, it was signing camby to a 6 year 30 million dollar extension, making him affordable. If he waited a year to do it Camby would be getting more like 6 year 60 million, and we could never have gotten mcdyess. By signing camby cheap he made him one of the knicks few tradable players.
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WOODMANnYk
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7/21/2002  2:55 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

You seem to make all these accusations well after the trades have been made. In 3 months if McDyess gets hurt you'll be telling us all what a terrible trade it was. It's really easy to go back and look at these trades in hindsight and say "he's a bum" or what not, but gie me a break. If the Camby deal was never done, the Knics wouldn't have been able to acquire McDyess. The LJ signing provided the team with a leader since Ewing never stepped up to the challenge, and LJ carried the team in a few playoff series. They signed Ward because there were no other free agent points available and Ward had the advantage from a bargaining standpoint because he knew the Knicks needed him. Dudley was brought in to defend guys when Ewing was out, because they didn't have anyone to do that.

The Bucks didn't make the playoffs because of injury. What I'm trying to say is, don't make all these stupid accusations 3 years later, when most of them were good moves to begin with.
These aren't stupid accusations, my friend.. The reason why we got MCDyess is because the 7th pick was available. If we had traded CAmby and Jackson straight up for McDyess, Denver would've hung up the phone on us.. Nuff Said! Grunfeld traded a big part of milwaukee's team(Scott Williams) who knew his role unlike Mason who just didn't fit with what they were trying to accomplished. As for the MCDYess deal, if he doesn't turn out to be what is expected, well his contract run out in 2004 which is 2 yrs from now. All Layden would do is not resign him, thats all.. LAyden knew what he was doing but BumFeld decided to take CHARLES SMITH with bad knees and we all know what charlie baby did in the playoffs vs Bulls. LJ isn't a bad player but his contract was. It crippled the knicks payroll.. As for DUDLEY, a one dimensional player whose foul-proned!! You don't throw the bank at him. During that period knicks could've gone for Olden polynice whose just as big but smarter than Dudley. He would've come alot cheaper. As for ward, there were few Pgs. available for less money. All i'm saying is BUmfeld isn't patient when it comes to making moves and loves to overspend on mediocre players. i wasn't making these accusations three yrs later, i made them when they were just done.
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BigSm00th
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7/21/2002  3:15 PM
"These aren't stupid accusations, my friend.. The reason why we got MCDyess is because the 7th pick was available. If we had traded CAmby and Jackson straight up for McDyess, Denver would've hung up the phone on us.. Nuff Said!"-If Camby wasn't on the team, they wouldn't have had a contract that would've made the deal available. Obviously Denver wanted Hilario, but if Camby wasn't there that deal wouldn't have been done.

"As for ward, there were few Pgs. available for less money."-Who?

"i wasn't making these accusations three yrs later, i made them when they were just done."-The Camby deal, signing of Dudley, and the Ward re-signing all happened 3 years ago...
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OasisBU
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7/21/2002  3:42 PM
Doesnt matter who is worse, Layden is what we have and he is the one who can help us now. So lets just deal with that, see what he can do, and hope this team can start getting the W's again.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
nykfan37
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7/21/2002  3:52 PM
If it weren't for Layden, we could of been under the cap....
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/21/2002  4:32 PM
Posted by nykfan37:

If it weren't for Layden, we could of been under the cap....

Not the case. Ernire BumFelled start that trend, bar none. Scott LayDown only continued that obscene cycle. Neither of them helped our cap situation, but LayDown still has a chance to redeem himself. He's still here. He has this offseason to make moves that'll help redeem himself and the team...
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
WOODMANnYk
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7/21/2002  4:52 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by nykfan37:

If it weren't for Layden, we could of been under the cap....

Not the case. Ernire BumFelled start that trend, bar none. Scott LayDown only continued that obscene cycle. Neither of them helped our cap situation, but LayDown still has a chance to redeem himself. He's still here. He has this offseason to make moves that'll help redeem himself and the team...

True that!!!
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LJ2
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7/21/2002  10:34 PM
If the Camby deal was never done, the Knics wouldn't have been able to acquire McDyess.

If the Camby deal was never done, they probably would never have gotten to the 99 NBA finals. Camby and LJ were the X factors in the 99 Conference finals against Indiana.
WOODMANnYk
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7/22/2002  12:14 AM
Posted by LJ2:
If the Camby deal was never done, the Knics wouldn't have been able to acquire McDyess.

If the Camby deal was never done, they probably would never have gotten to the 99 NBA finals. Camby and LJ were the X factors in the 99 Conference finals against Indiana.
Yeah but Camby wasn't even starting for the knicks. Why, cause he's really a role player. He can't start!!! What happened soon as he became a starter, he gets injured too much!! Bumfeld didn't do his homework cause Camby wasn't starting for toronto either...
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nwny
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7/22/2002  1:32 PM
Yeah but Camby wasn't even starting for the knicks. Why, cause he's really a role player. He can't start!!! What happened soon as he became a starter, he gets injured too much!! Bumfeld didn't do his homework cause Camby wasn't starting for toronto either...

Hmmm, that's not true. Camby played 63 games the season before coming to the Knicks and the started 58 of them. He was already a starter. Starting didn't get him injured.
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Whose worse Scott LAyden or Ernie Grunfeld???
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