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Why running isn't the answer.
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OldFan
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1/1/2006  3:52 PM

I started this as a response to another topic but it comes up so often I thought it deserved a topic of it's own.

To me it seems this board has always had a lot of folks - no matter what our roster was - that thought running was some kind of panacea for our losing ways. I don't think it is.

Here is a short list of reasons that I do not think a running game will help this team:

1) To run you have to play D. It's hard to run when you're taking the ball out of the net. Until the Knicks can get some stops running ain't an option.

2) To run you have to make good decisions with the ball.

3) Marbs so far in his career has not shown the running the break to be one of his Strengths. What running team has ever been successful without a PG that was excellent at running the break?

4) Curry - a key component of the offense - is out of shape and has trouble even playing at half court pace.

5) To run - you need to have a Strong Defensive rebounding team. This team is only a so-so defensive rebounding team.

Obviously this is my opinion. I would like to know why people think this can or should be a running team.



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SlimPack
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1/1/2006  4:04 PM
all those points made sense the knicks actually looked pretty good running in the first half of the milwaukee game.
NYKniCksFan87
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1/1/2006  4:06 PM
curry isnt as out of shape as some folks say, when we were running during the bucks game, marbury was findin the open man wit ease
''We don't have the luxury to take anybody lightly,'' New York's Quentin Richardson said. ''We're not that good.''
OldFan
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1/1/2006  5:30 PM
Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

curry isnt as out of shape as some folks say, when we were running during the bucks game, marbury was findin the open man wit ease

Curry's played less then 500 minutes the entire season. It's hard for me to believe he's in shape.

Marbs - has been in the league Ten years - your basing his ability to run on part of a game?
NYKniCksFan87
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1/1/2006  5:34 PM
no imnot, im not sayin he looked like nash out there, but he was findin openlooks for his teamand only reason i say curry hasnt looked that outof shape because he has played pretty well the past few games
''We don't have the luxury to take anybody lightly,'' New York's Quentin Richardson said. ''We're not that good.''
bigbeast
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1/1/2006  5:55 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

curry isnt as out of shape as some folks say, when we were running during the bucks game, marbury was findin the open man wit ease

Curry's played less then 500 minutes the entire season. It's hard for me to believe he's in shape.

Marbs - has been in the league Ten years - your basing his ability to run on part of a game?


Marbury has averaged 8 assist a game for his career. I wish people would stop saying he can't and wont pass. Is he as good a passer as Nash or Kidd? No. But he's still a good passer, the numbers don't lie.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
oohah
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1/1/2006  6:13 PM
Running is not a solution for bad basketball teams.

It just so happens that this bad team has a lot of players who can fit in well with a running system. Why not utilize the strengths of players rather than exposing them by playing them in a style that is contrary to their abilities?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
OldFan
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1/1/2006  6:16 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

curry isnt as out of shape as some folks say, when we were running during the bucks game, marbury was findin the open man wit ease

Curry's played less then 500 minutes the entire season. It's hard for me to believe he's in shape.

Marbs - has been in the league Ten years - your basing his ability to run on part of a game?


Marbury has averaged 8 assist a game for his career. I wish people would stop saying he can't and wont pass. Is he as good a passer as Nash or Kidd? No. But he's still a good passer, the numbers don't lie.


I didn't say he wasn't a passer. I said he has not shown that running the break is one of his strengths. Running a break is not the same as running a 1/2 court offense. Good running teams have excellent players controlling the break. I dont' think Marbs fits that mold and even if he did it takes a team of players who know how to run a break - not just run fast and jump high - and I don't think the Knicks have that. (plus the lack of defense, lack of rebounding...)
crzymdups
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1/1/2006  6:20 PM
I agree. Marbury's strength is running the half court offense and pick and rolls. Curry's pressence should allow us to establish a post pressence, get other teams in the bonus and control the pace. Robinson and Crawford seem to have the ability to play the half court game. As does Frye. Though all three of those guys can get out and run. Mo Taylor is a good backup option at PF for half court offense.

One major problem the team has right now is that we don't have a halfcourt SF, or really a true half court SG. Ariza, Lee, QRich are all open court players who have few half court offense skills. Lee strikes me as the best of that bunch, with his rebounding, ballhandling and passing abilities.

This team needs a half court SF, someone who has a nice outside shot, can pass and can take it into the post. I'm not sure one is available, but if we could get one at the deadline it would help things.
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OldFan
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1/1/2006  6:21 PM
Posted by oohah:

Running is not a solution for bad basketball teams.

It just so happens that this bad team has a lot of players who can fit in well with a running system. Why not utilize the strengths of players rather than exposing them by playing them in a style that is contrary to their abilities?

oohah


I disagree with the premise that the knicks have players that fit the running system. I stated why. They don't play defense, don't rebound and don't take care of the ball. Being able to run fast and dunk - does not make a running team. This team lacks the defense and rebounding to consistently get the opportunity to run and lacks the passing and know how to effectively run given the opportunity.

Apparently you disagree. That's great - but please expain why.
oohah
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1/1/2006  7:28 PM
I disagree with the premise that the knicks have players that fit the running system. I stated why. They don't play defense, don't rebound and don't take care of the ball. Being able to run fast and dunk - does not make a running team. This team lacks the defense and rebounding to consistently get the opportunity to run and lacks the passing and know how to effectively run given the opportunity.

All the weaknesses you described are true whether they play half-court or if they run. The difference is if they play an uptempo game they are taking better advantage of the player's abilities--if there is one thing we can say about the knicks it's that we have athletes.

What we don't have is players who can execute in the halfcourt set. We don't have shooters, which is mandatory for a successful half-court team. We don't have executors and we ain't a bruising team.

Furthermore:

1) To run you have to play D. It's hard to run when you're taking the ball out of the net. Until the Knicks can get some stops running ain't an option.

Perhaps if we played an uptempo style we could PRESS. Don't tell me we don't have the right players for a pressing defense. This team is terrible in the halfcourt both offensively and defensively, so what are we losing by running or pressing? The Knicks are the worst team in the league plaing their current style! They have to take advantage of the personnel. Create some turnovers and some opportunities. Give the other team something to think about--which they are not doing playing half-court.

2) To run you have to make good decisions with the ball.

Same goes with playing half-court style--even moreso. The players the Knicks have are better suited to running, so they have a better chance of success ball-decision making being equal.

3) Marbs so far in his career has not shown the running the break to be one of his Strengths. What running team has ever been successful without a PG that was excellent at running the break?

He hasn't been successful running a half-court set either. However, he finishes at the basket better than most players in the game at any position. If the Knicks run, that uses Marbury to his strengths, it causes defenses to concentrate on him, opens up the lanes for Ariza, Frye, and Lee to jambola, and for frye to get OPEN j's as a trailer.

Also, if Crawford isn't the type of player who thrives in an uptempo game, I don't know who is. NR could use his athletic abilities better to get steals and push the ball. Q might get some of those open 3's he enjoyed in Phoenix.

4) Curry - a key component of the offense - is out of shape and has trouble even playing at half court pace.

Curry has had a enough time to get in shape--3 months at least. There is no longer any excuse for him to not be in game shape. They can't tailor the game plan to when he might be in shape. In any case, Curry does not have to be the main man all the time. Curry is a half-court player. Go to him when you can't run, and run when you can!

5) To run - you need to have a Strong Defensive rebounding team. This team is only a so-so defensive rebounding team.

This is still hurting us with the half-court style. So why not take advantage of some of the team's strengths?

Apparently you disagree. That's great - but please expain why.

No need to be obnoxious.

Running isn't the answer, but it is a lot closer to the answer than trying to fit a running peg into a half-court hole.

oohah




[Edited by - oohah on 01-01-2006 7:36 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
gunsnewing
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1/1/2006  8:41 PM
thats the key..if you want to run you have to rebound and defend and you need a PG & coach who pushes it. Steph and Larry don't
Bonn1997
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1/1/2006  8:45 PM
The Knicks have the rebounding part down well. They've outrebounded their opponents by 119 boards (4.3 per game) this year. Most people don't realize rebounding is one of the few very bright spots for the team this year. The defense is terrible, though, obviously. The team's not gonna be able to run much giving up this many points.
attaboy2005
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1/1/2006  8:55 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by oohah:

Running is not a solution for bad basketball teams.

It just so happens that this bad team has a lot of players who can fit in well with a running system. Why not utilize the strengths of players rather than exposing them by playing them in a style that is contrary to their abilities?

oohah


I disagree with the premise that the knicks have players that fit the running system. I stated why. They don't play defense, don't rebound and don't take care of the ball. Being able to run fast and dunk - does not make a running team. This team lacks the defense and rebounding to consistently get the opportunity to run and lacks the passing and know how to effectively run given the opportunity.

Apparently you disagree. That's great - but please expain why.

Do you think the Suns are a good defensive team, they aren't and they run, that is myth that you have to be an defensive team to run, that fact is we never saw this team run, to know whether they can do it or not. Maybe the problem with our defense is that our offensive is too stagnant, if we ran on offense, and succeeded, then the defense could get better, we won't know unless we try, what do we have to lose at this point and time, the team is already losing so why not give it a try. RUN RUN RUN LIKE HELL!!!!!
oohah
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1/1/2006  8:58 PM
thats the key..if you want to run you have to rebound and defend and you need a PG & coach who pushes it. Steph and Larry don't

You still have to play defense when playing a half-court style and the Knicks are not playing good defense. I also think the Knicks should press the ball more to take advantage of their speed and length (Ariza, Crawford, Lee, Frye and NR (Speed for NR).

I have seen Marbury run before. He can play that style just as well as he does half-court, and it is better suited to the players currently on the roster.

Maybe it won't work. But can it possibly be worse than what the Knicks are doing now? They are at a .250 winning percentage for goodness' sake!

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-01-2006 8:59 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
bigbeast
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1/1/2006  9:21 PM
The Knicks, I believe are one of the top 5 rebounding teams in the league.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
oohah
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1/1/2006  9:28 PM
The Knicks, I believe are one of the top 5 rebounding teams in the league.

The Knicks are number 8 in rebounding and 7th worst in FGP. Perhaps there is a correlation...

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
McK1
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1/1/2006  9:42 PM
Larry Brown has made running an incentive based program.

create turnoves, force bad shots and secure long rebounds you get to run

running to run up the score ala the Wiz is not happening!
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
oohah
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1/1/2006  10:01 PM
Larry Brown has made running an incentive based program.
create turnoves, force bad shots and secure long rebounds you get to run

That is a terrible way to approach a fast-paced system if you are correct. It should not be about what you get to do, but doing what you are good at. The reward should not be the style of play itself, but wins and improvement.

Perhaps if they pressed a bit they would create turnoves, force bad shots and secure long rebounds more often.

running to run up the score ala the Wiz is not happening!

I don't think that is what the Wizards are doing, they are just playing to their strengths. The same with Phoenix and Seattle. "Running up the score" is "running without reason". What we are doing now is "playing half-court without reason". Playing an uptempo style (Not necessarily the "Running game".) would be beneficial to many of the Knick's players games and probably the attitude of the team.

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
OldFan
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1/1/2006  10:15 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Knicks have the rebounding part down well. They've outrebounded their opponents by 119 boards (4.3 per game) this year. Most people don't realize rebounding is one of the few very bright spots for the team this year. The defense is terrible, though, obviously. The team's not gonna be able to run much giving up this many points.

Look at their Defensive rebounding - it's average at best. They're strength rebounding is on the Offensive boards.
Why running isn't the answer.

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