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Props to how Jamal handled a bad game
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jaydh
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1/2/2006  11:47 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:
I wont give him props for stating the obvious. He had no choice, he blew 3 possesions AND missed both free throws. He singlehandedly lost the game for us.

No props for Jamal for stating the obvious, yet no knocks for Steph when he denies the obvious? How 'bout the Orlando game where he played like a dog with his 5 pts, 3 asts, 0 steals in 40 mins. Does he take a lick of responsibility? No, of course not, he told us it was the coaches system, the refs, and his teammates not hitting their shots.

At least Jamal shows he expects to be an impact player and this team needs that from him.

Steph argues for going through the motions and pawning it off on others. A real winner that one is.

yea, you're right, the team shooting 35% had nothing to do with steph only getting 3 assists.
AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
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1/2/2006  12:09 PM
Posted by jaydh:



yea, you're right, the team shooting 35% had nothing to do with steph only getting 3 assists.

Then what explains him only taking 3 shots in 36 minutes?

Don't you see that to explain his low points he says his teammates were hot, but to explain his low assists he says they couldn't hit their shots.

He dogged it and you guys actually buy his bull crap, however blameful and irrational it may be. Then to top it all off, some of you who refuse to acknowledge the obvious call those who do "blind" or "ignorant".
jaydh
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1/2/2006  12:29 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by jaydh:



yea, you're right, the team shooting 35% had nothing to do with steph only getting 3 assists.

Then what explains him only taking 3 shots in 36 minutes?

Don't you see that to explain his low points he says his teammates were hot, but to explain his low assists he says they couldn't hit their shots.


i know he shot the ball poorly that game(0-7), that was bad, i know. players that he was setting up(AD, qrich, frye) were not hitting their shots that game. Most of Currys points came from the FT line and from constant passing and moving the ball around. The latter was also true with JC as he got most his points at the line and beyond the arc(he was open from the ball constantly being moved around).
Posted by BlueSeats:

He dogged it and you guys actually buy his bull crap, however blameful and irrational it may be. Then to top it all off, some of you who refuse to acknowledge the obvious call those who do "blind" or "ignorant".

because most here, ONLY blame steph whereas Steph is not the main problem.
BlueSeats
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1/2/2006  12:56 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by jaydh:



yea, you're right, the team shooting 35% had nothing to do with steph only getting 3 assists.

Then what explains him only taking 3 shots in 36 minutes?

Don't you see that to explain his low points he says his teammates were hot, but to explain his low assists he says they couldn't hit their shots.


i know he shot the ball poorly that game(0-7), that was bad, i know. players that he was setting up(AD, qrich, frye) were not hitting their shots that game. Most of Currys points came from the FT line and from constant passing and moving the ball around. The latter was also true with JC as he got most his points at the line and beyond the arc(he was open from the ball constantly being moved around).

the problem isn't only that Steph shot poorly, it's that he only took three shots in 36 minutes, and much of that time was playing SG.

Plus Jamal shot 7-15 and Eddy 10-17. That's high percentages.

Look, however you want to cut it 5/3/0 in 40 mins was an awful performance; so bad his coach, commentators, and most fans and analysts believe he dogged it. But even if he didn't, acknowledge like Jamal did that the team needs you and can't win with you playing like that. Instead he blamed the coach, refs, and teammates.

Steph simply isn't winning friends and influence this way.


Posted by BlueSeats:

He dogged it and you guys actually buy his bull crap, however blameful and irrational it may be. Then to top it all off, some of you who refuse to acknowledge the obvious call those who do "blind" or "ignorant".

because most here, ONLY blame steph whereas Steph is not the main problem.

I don't know, since I've been here I've seen equal blame going to guys like HOF Brown or 15 minute scrubs like AD and Malik. Just as last year it was Wilkens and Shandon.

After a while we see we can't blame Steph for our losses in the same way we can't credit him for wins. he's worked himself into a nobody here that doesn't take responsibility for our record one way or the other, yet he and some fans think he should be treated special and above it all.

Can someone please tell me:

A) what is Steph's value and role on the team?
B) what do we have a right to expect from him?
C) is he fulfilling it?



[Edited by - BlueSeats on 01-02-2006 12:57 PM]
jaydh
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1/2/2006  1:12 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't know, since I've been here I've seen equal blame going to guys like HOF Brown or 15 minute scrubs like AD and Malik. Just as last year it was Wilkens and Shandon.

i dont see threads started DAILY about any of them.
Posted by BlueSeats:

After a while we see we can't blame Steph for our losses in the same way we can't credit him for wins. he's worked himself into a nobody here that doesn't take responsibility for our record one way or the other, yet he and some fans think he should be treated special and above it all.

Can someone please tell me:

A) what is Steph's value and role on the team?
B) what do we have a right to expect from him?
C) is he fulfilling it?

A) to be a pass-first PG, get others involved first, but if open to take the shot
B) He is working in a completely new system than he has ever seen with new players. i expect him to help the other 4 on the court to get their game going; i expect him to drive when all our other players are just standing around; i expect him to hustle on D and defend the tougher guards(since Nate and JC cant); i expect him to do what LB wants
C) i see those expectations fulfilled alot; its difficult when many players are just standing around, and many just dont have an offensive game. those are the times he tries to do to much and things fall apart, but who do you fault, steph for trying to make something happen, or the other players for not executing

Like someone said, if we had a consistent swingman capable of hitting shots, our record would be very different.
nykshaknbake
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1/2/2006  1:16 PM
He def did not have a good game that night, but perhaps he was off. When a guy shoots 0-7 are you gonna argue that he shoulda shot it more? It brings back memories of Starks vs the Rockets.

Additionally, it's very interesting that PRECEIVED attitude and speech take much more importance in your eyes than performance on the court. Steph has been our top guard and arguably the best player performance wise on our team. If all our boys did as well as he did and wore towels on their heads we would be one of the top teams in basketball.
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by jaydh:



yea, you're right, the team shooting 35% had nothing to do with steph only getting 3 assists.

Then what explains him only taking 3 shots in 36 minutes?

Don't you see that to explain his low points he says his teammates were hot, but to explain his low assists he says they couldn't hit their shots.

He dogged it and you guys actually buy his bull crap, however blameful and irrational it may be. Then to top it all off, some of you who refuse to acknowledge the obvious call those who do "blind" or "ignorant".



[Edited by - nykshaknbake on 01-02-2006 1:21 PM]
BlueSeats
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1/2/2006  1:59 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

He def did not have a good game that night, but perhaps he was off. When a guy shoots 0-7 are you gonna argue that he shoulda shot it more? It brings back memories of Starks vs the Rockets.

Starks, as our second option put up 18 or 19 shots, Steph put up 7. 3 thru 3 quarters. Steph's problem wasn't efficiency, it was effort, and unlike Steph, nobody had to question Starks' heart.

It's also about responsibility, and Steph took none. The elite players that Steph's supporters would like him to be associated with are never satisfied with their worst efforts, nor do they try to pawn them off on others.
Additionally, it's very interesting that PRECEIVED attitude and speech take much more importance in your eyes than performance on the court. Steph has been our top guard and arguably the best player performance wise on our team. If all our boys did as well as he did and wore towels on their heads we would be one of the top teams in basketball.

I don't deny that Steph should be able to outperform most of our guys on most nights, but as a 10 year veteran put at the figurative and literal "head" of the team I expect him to set good examples and I don't feel he does.

Neither apparently does his GM. steph and isiah are known to have many a private late night chats, yet isiah still finds the need to publicly call out Steph and put him on notice.

Some examples?

"Steph's playing the worst defense in the league"
"Anyone athletic enough to score 20 pts is athletic enough to defend"
"I'd trade my mother to make this team better"
"Steph will either get on the same page as LB or he'll be traded"

The latest, I think, was the most telling:

"your wife and kids are watching so act like a man"

Why do I find that telling? It tells me Isiah has expired all attempts to reach Steph as a basketball player and what he should do as a teammate, now he's telling steph he's embarrassing himself (let alone Isiah) and publicly challenging his manhood. It HAS to be close to Isiah's final straw, yet how did Steph respond? The Orlando game, requiring the PR department to help Steph with his post game interview.

If Steph's not careful fans will take my cousin's advice and start coming to games wearing towels on their head and sitting stoic and glum throughout the game. Maybe that would be a wake-up call.
nykshaknbake
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1/2/2006  2:11 PM
If starks had realized he was cold, I would have seen a NYK championship. When you're ice cold, the solution isn't to compound 0-7 into 1-20.

Steph's attitude does need some work. But my point is that his main value to the team is as a basketball player and putting up points and assists. It boogles my mind when the main reason that people hate him is because of the towels and because he doesn't smile or publically say I had a bad game when he sometimes does.

Meanwhile the same people think Craw is the greatest thing since sliced bread when he routinely has bad night, still odesn't D up and pretty much is inferior in almost every aspect of the actual game of basketball compared to Marbs. If we desperatley have to get rid of Marbs for anything any team wants to dump on us we'd have to do that with our entire roster - Frye if we were being fair.
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

He def did not have a good game that night, but perhaps he was off. When a guy shoots 0-7 are you gonna argue that he shoulda shot it more? It brings back memories of Starks vs the Rockets.

Starks, as our second option put up 18 or 19 shots, Steph put up 7. 3 thru 3 quarters. Steph's problem wasn't efficiency, it was effort, and unlike Steph, nobody had to question Starks' heart.

It's also about responsibility, and Steph took none. The elite players that Steph's supporters would like him to be associated with are never satisfied with their worst efforts, nor do they try to pawn them off on others.
Additionally, it's very interesting that PRECEIVED attitude and speech take much more importance in your eyes than performance on the court. Steph has been our top guard and arguably the best player performance wise on our team. If all our boys did as well as he did and wore towels on their heads we would be one of the top teams in basketball.

I don't deny that Steph should be able to outperform most of our guys on most nights, but as a 10 year veteran put at the figurative and literal "head" of the team I expect him to set good examples and I don't feel he does.

Neither apparently does his GM. steph and isiah are known to have many a private late night chats, yet isiah still finds the need to publicly call out Steph and put him on notice.

Some examples?

"Steph's playing the worst defense in the league"
"Anyone athletic enough to score 20 pts is athletic enough to defend"
"I'd trade my mother to make this team better"
"Steph will either get on the same page as LB or he'll be traded"

The latest, I think, was the most telling:

"your wife and kids are watching so act like a man"

Why do I find that telling? It tells me Isiah has expired all attempts to reach Steph as a basketball player and what he should do as a teammate, now he's telling steph he's embarrassing himself (let alone Isiah) and publicly challenging his manhood. It HAS to be close to Isiah's final straw, yet how did Steph respond? The Orlando game, requiring the PR department to help Steph with his post game interview.

If Steph's not careful fans will take my cousin's advice and start coming to games wearing towels on their head and sitting stoic and glum throughout the game. Maybe that would be a wake-up call.
dannyweiss
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1/2/2006  2:15 PM
Blue: Your cousin's a genius. Martyrbury will get himself booted out of NY and then blame it on LB for not giving him the freedom to be who he is, on his teammates for not making him look like a PG, and the fans for not showing him the love.
Elite
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1/2/2006  3:43 PM
Marbury should not get killed when he has a good game but he needs to take responsibility the games he does not play bad... after orlando he should have said " I need to be more agressive" cuz thats what he needed to do, first step to getting better is realising what u did wrong...... I was the first to KILL jamal last year cuz he chucked up so many stupid shots but i see him getting better so i am commending him for that.... i appload steph when he plays well, he was my fav player since georga tech but he needs to suck it up be a man and start being a more agressive leader and a better player, point blank period
BlueSeats
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1/2/2006  5:05 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

If starks had realized he was cold, I would have seen a NYK championship. When you're ice cold, the solution isn't to compound 0-7 into 1-20.

Starks knew he was cold, Riley told him to shoot his way out of it as he'd seen him do so many times before.

Brown has told Steph repeatedly he wants him taking 15-20 shots per game, even from the point, and steph played probably half that game from the two.

Why didn't Brown tell Steph to keep shooting that game? I don't know, i can only assume for whatever reason he couldn't see fit to speak to him for two days thereafter. Anger? Disgust? Let him dig his own grave? I just don't know.
Steph's attitude does need some work. But my point is that his main value to the team is as a basketball player and putting up points and assists. It boogles my mind when the main reason that people hate him is because of the towels and because he doesn't smile or publically say I had a bad game when he sometimes does.

similarly it boggles my mind that otherwise bright people can't see that Steph is an extremely distracting and divisive entity. He is to the message board, to his coach and GM who have to keep reprimanding him, to his former coaches and teammates, etc, yet somehow some think he isn't that to his present team. They think all this can go on with everyone oblivious or immune to it, and it having no impact on our woeful record.

Look, people will be resistant to any accusations I may make, however grounded in logic or precendence they are. So let me take a different tact; let me ask you to do the work for yourselves. Please reflect on this one simple question:

How many Knicks has Isiah publicly called out this year? To the best of my knowledge it's been Steph alone. If it's unfair for a fan to 'single him out' (which I deny is the case), why would Isiah do the same?
Meanwhile the same people think Craw is the greatest thing since sliced bread when he routinely has bad night, still odesn't D up

Huh, I see people acknowledge Craw's inconsistency all the time. I think he just still offers hope in certain areas where they've given up on Steph.
and pretty much is inferior in almost every aspect of the actual game of basketball compared to Marbs.

I disagree, but of course when these finer points get debated you guys call it 'singling Steph out."
If we desperatley have to get rid of Marbs for anything any team wants to dump on us we'd have to do that with our entire roster - Frye if we were being fair.

Please refer to my question above.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 01-02-2006 5:06 PM]
Bippity10
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1/3/2006  3:12 PM
I loved the way Crawford handled the situation. It was mature and representative of a guy that is learning from his coach and ultimately going to learn from his mistakes. Let's leave it at that. Why must we always drag Marbs through the mud. Marbs has played very well this season and is getting used to the new system. Why must NY fans creat such a negative losing atmosphere around the guy everytime he has a bad game? We talk about his body language but the body language of the fans, unless we are winning is horrendous.

On a side note: My guess is if Craw had been bashed in the papers for weeks on end and then messed up the game he might have handled the situation a little differently. Just a thought.
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martin
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1/3/2006  3:16 PM
Bip, what are your thoughts on Craw's D? Seen much improvement this year? Just wondering.
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BlueSeats
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1/3/2006  3:51 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I loved the way Crawford handled the situation. It was mature and representative of a guy that is learning from his coach and ultimately going to learn from his mistakes. Let's leave it at that. Why must we always drag Marbs through the mud. Marbs has played very well this season and is getting used to the new system. Why must NY fans creat such a negative losing atmosphere around the guy everytime he has a bad game? We talk about his body language but the body language of the fans, unless we are winning is horrendous.

On a side note: My guess is if Craw had been bashed in the papers for weeks on end and then messed up the game he might have handled the situation a little differently. Just a thought.

Bip, if you look you'll see that the thread turned to Steph when his supporters wouldn't allow a simple compliment to Jamal stand on it's own, they had to reference it to Steph - just as you did.

I'm not trying to be combative, but you also just bumped up the body language thread that was dead for 24 hours. I think if some of you guys could accept that when Steph is gonna dog it, like he did in Orlando, he's gonna take some heat, and if he can play strong and positive, as he did last night, he wont.

Steph is not a powerless victim in all this, much as you guys make him out to be, and haters aren't the only guys inappropriately invoking his name .

Bippity10
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1/3/2006  4:10 PM
BlueSeats I would just like our fans to bring a positive winning atmosphere to our team as much as they expect the players too. Got to be honest with you, I value your opinion on everything. I love your posting you have some good knowledge. But your posting on Marbs is tired. It's the same stuff over and over. It's like watching the clock for 24 hours. After a while you know what to expect
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Bippity10
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1/3/2006  4:14 PM
Martin: His off the ball defense has improved. I'm not happy with his on the ball D. He still has a lot of moments where he just loses his concentration. It reminds me a lot of Allan. He'll stand in one spot while his guy is moving around through picks. Then when his guy gets the ball he makes a half arsed efford to get out there to make it look like hustle. I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate that when my guys do that. He also gets beat on the first move to often. I mean when guys just put the ball on the floor without actually make a move. That's a huge no no.

That being said I think it's obvious that he is attempting to get better and have no doubt that he eventually will. I have no worries aoub this kid. He is very coachable. He also seems to up his defense in close games when the crowd is rocking which just goes to show he is more than capable.
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martin
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1/3/2006  4:26 PM
excellent Bip, thanks.
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BlueSeats
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1/3/2006  4:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

BlueSeats I would just like our fans to bring a positive winning atmosphere to our team as much as they expect the players too. Got to be honest with you, I value your opinion on everything. I love your posting you have some good knowledge. But your posting on Marbs is tired. It's the same stuff over and over. It's like watching the clock for 24 hours. After a while you know what to expect

Fair enough, and thanks for the compliment. Right back at ya.

I agree to the extent that I too don't like individual Knicks booed at the Garden. I was a season ticket holder thru the Charles Smith years and didn't like it even for him.

I also am tired of the Marbury debate. Once upon a time I was considered a good poster even when I liked Steph. Now I have a hard time remembering what else I used to talk about Fact of the matter is I probably used to talk a lot about him then too, even to support him, simply because he was such an important component of our future. More important than so many of the scrubs that other's obsess over (Malik, AD, Shandon).

Anyway, when I came here I expected better things of Steph and the Knicks, and had no real agenda of spreading my hate. But my weakness is that I DO get easily caught up in the debate over whether or not Marbury is a team distraction. I need to get better about that. And sometimes it becomes a viscous cycle. I might tell myself to simply not talk about Steph for a few days, but sure enough someone will call me out, or call out all haters, or whatever, and I all too easily get sucked right back in. It's an addiction, I suppose.

And while it is my weakness, I'm not sure I'm so often the aggressor. I don't start a lot of threads period, let alone ones calling out Steph. But once we have our respective reputations people sometimes come looking for us, as anyone with strong opinions on any one subject probably understands.

In any case, I respect where you are coming from and I'll try to do better.

Peace.
jaydh
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1/3/2006  4:43 PM
Awww... now kiss and make up.
BlueSeats
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1/3/2006  4:51 PM
Posted by jaydh:

Awww... now kiss and make up.


See, I'm just like Steph. My arrogance floweth over, my teammates respect me but hate me, and I'm damned if i do, and damned if i don't.
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