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Stat Comparison For Knicks v. Hawks
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EwingsGlass
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12/16/2005  10:56 PM
Knicks Hawks
Points 111 122
FG Made-Attempted 42-87 43-68
3P Made-Attempted 5-9 (.556) 12-16 (.750)
FT Made-Attempted 22-33 (.000) 24-32 (.000)
Rebounds (Off-Tot) 19-38 11-33
Assists 12 20
Turnovers 15 18
Steals 11 9
Blocks 2 10
Fast Break Points 8 11
Fouls (Tech/Flag) 25 (1/0) 29 (2/0)
Largest Lead 0 18

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=251216001

If you look at the stats, we had a pretty good game. They just had a phenomenal game. Our defense was horrid, but their offense was just ridiculous. This one just isn't so bad. The number that troubles me the most is the 12 assists. For the record, Andre Miller had 13 assists in Denver by himself. We need a real PG and some perimeter defense.
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crzymdups
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12/16/2005  10:58 PM
Here was the stat that really blew me away tonight:

IDIOT COACHES
Ny: 1
Atl: 0
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crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:00 PM
The perimeter defense is atrocious. Every team in the league gets any look they want. Every team in the league has their best night from the 3pt line when we see them. Atlanta averages 91ppg and 3 3pters per game. Tonight they had 122pts, 12 3pters and shot 63% from the field. 63%. Somewhere, Riley and JVG are laughing.
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OAK
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12/16/2005  11:02 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Here was the stat that really blew me away tonight:

IDIOT COACHES
Ny: 1
Atl: 0

LOL!
BasketballJones
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12/16/2005  11:08 PM
I think the worst stat is:

Opponent: 122 points

https:// It's not so hard.
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:12 PM
Here's another stat:

There have been 9 games decided in the NBA tonight. In every single game, the team that shot and made more 3pters won the game.

We are the worst team in the league at defending 3pts. We are also one of the teams that takes the fewest in the entire league, despite having two players who finished in the top 5 in 3pt fg makes last season (Craw and Q). Craw and Q are actually pretty useless if they aren't shooting threes, but pretty valuable if they are making them.

Larry Brown won't allow this team to shoot threes and it puts them in a significant hole. Every. Single. Night.
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jaydh
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12/16/2005  11:15 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Here's another stat:

There have been 9 games decided in the NBA tonight. In every single game, the team that shot and made more 3pters won the game.

We are the worst team in the league at defending 3pts. We are also one of the teams that takes the fewest in the entire league, despite having two players who finished in the top 5 in 3pt fg makes last season (Craw and Q). Craw and Q are actually pretty useless if they aren't shooting threes, but pretty valuable if they are making them.

Larry Brown won't allow this team to shoot threes and it puts them in a significant hole. Every. Single. Night.


Crawford seems to be getting better, but Q continues to unimpress. He's probably had 2 decent games for us all season.
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:19 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by crzymdups:

Here's another stat:

There have been 9 games decided in the NBA tonight. In every single game, the team that shot and made more 3pters won the game.

We are the worst team in the league at defending 3pts. We are also one of the teams that takes the fewest in the entire league, despite having two players who finished in the top 5 in 3pt fg makes last season (Craw and Q). Craw and Q are actually pretty useless if they aren't shooting threes, but pretty valuable if they are making them.

Larry Brown won't allow this team to shoot threes and it puts them in a significant hole. Every. Single. Night.


Crawford seems to be getting better, but Q continues to unimpress. He's probably had 2 decent games for us all season.

Craw is playing smarter, true. He should be starting.

Q should be allowed to shoot outside. That shouldn't be all he does and he shouldn't have carte blanche, but he should get some shots. Hey, here's a crazy idea: run a play for the 3pt champion that sets him up for a - GASP - THREE POINTER!!! How unfundamentally sound of me!
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crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:22 PM
Hey, here's my favorite stat from this season:

Antonio Davis has the worst +/- and PER in the entire league. He sucks.

Larry Brown is a real genius to put him out there as a decoy...
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Bonn1997
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12/16/2005  11:26 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by crzymdups:

Here's another stat:

There have been 9 games decided in the NBA tonight. In every single game, the team that shot and made more 3pters won the game.

We are the worst team in the league at defending 3pts. We are also one of the teams that takes the fewest in the entire league, despite having two players who finished in the top 5 in 3pt fg makes last season (Craw and Q). Craw and Q are actually pretty useless if they aren't shooting threes, but pretty valuable if they are making them.

Larry Brown won't allow this team to shoot threes and it puts them in a significant hole. Every. Single. Night.


Crawford seems to be getting better, but Q continues to unimpress. He's probably had 2 decent games for us all season.

Crawford's as inconsistent as he's ever been. He looks better only if you watch him only on his good nights.
Knicksfan
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12/16/2005  11:32 PM
"This one isn't so bad."

What?

Against a good team we would've lost by 30+. Thank God it was the Hawks, but its funny how even they are better than us. Right now we wouldn't even have a winning record in the NCAA. But who to blame? Players? Coach? GM? I don't know and I don't care anymore. This team isn't really worth thinking about. Pure quitters...
Knicks_Fan
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:48 PM
here's some more stats about 3s:

we get outscored from the 3pt line by 12ppg this year. We were basically even last year. We add the 3pt Champion, the guy who made the most threes in the league and now we take 5 fewer 3pt shots per game this year.

Detroit this year outscores their opponents by 9ppg from the 3pt line. Last year, with Brown the genius they were outscored at the 3pt line because they only took 12.8 3s per game, but at least they could defend the 3pt line.

We can't defend the 3pt line, and despite the fact that we could answer back from there, we don't take any threes.

This year in the NBA: The only winning team in the league that gets outscored from the 3pt line is the LA Clippers, and they have one of most dominant big men in the league and one of the best midrange shooters in Cassell. The only losing teams in the NBA that outscore their opponents from the 3pt line are the Lakers and Sonics, and they are both playing better recently.

The three pointer is an important facet of today's NBA, it's an easy way to put points on the board if you have the correct personnel. We have Q-Rich and Craw and Marbury and even Frye. We don't cover the perimeter and we make it easy on the other team by not using our perimeter weapons.

You can say, "oh, Detroit did fine last year without the 3pt shot," but why were they 16-14 last year after 30 games and struggling in close games where this year they are winning easily and they're 17-3 after 20 games? they take more threes now. they have the personnel. You take good three point shots, you open up the floor, you put points on the board.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 12-16-2005 11:48 PM]
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EwingsGlass
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12/17/2005  1:08 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

"This one isn't so bad."

What?

Against a good team we would've lost by 30+. Thank God it was the Hawks, but its funny how even they are better than us. Right now we wouldn't even have a winning record in the NCAA. But who to blame? Players? Coach? GM? I don't know and I don't care anymore. This team isn't really worth thinking about. Pure quitters...

Shooting like that Atl would have beaten 95% of the league. I understand losing to the Hawks is pathetic. But if the stats are indication, the Knicks had a very good offensive game. No team shots 65% and loses. 75% 3 ptrs is unheard of. 33% is more likely. They shoot 33% from behind the arc, they lose by 10. This wasn't the Knicks worst out, I stand by my statement, this one wasn't so bad.
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tomverve
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12/17/2005  1:09 AM
You're right crzy, 3 point shooting is hurting us this season on both ends of the court. It should be noted that we don't have great 3 point shooting personnel-- Q and JC were both volume shooters from 3 last year and both had pedestrian accuracies around 35%. But, of course shooting 35% from 3 is equivalent to shooting a little better than 50% on 2s, so even average 3 point shooting has its benefits. And on top of that there's all sorts of things about how it can spread a defense and help enable the post/driving/midrange game and so on.

On the flip side, we really don't have much from downtown. Q and JC are average in terms of accuracy and on top of that, both are notoriously streaky. Marbury can hit an occassional 3, but it's not a shot you'd want to design a play for. Frye would certainly be an intriguing possibility though, as many of his shot are only a foot or two inside the line anyway and he hits those at a great clip.

Interestingly, I checked Reggie Miller's 3PA during Brown's years with the Pacers and his attempts were actually comparable to his career averages, including two of his most prodigious seasons in terms of putting up the 3. So LB might not be so aversive to the 3 point shot if we had a true gunner from there. Still, I agree, we should definitely utilize the shot more than we do.

As for the D, I don't know what to say. We should be athletic enough to be able to make the rotations needed to defend perimeter Js reasonably well, and we have a coach who's known for preaching D. I'm at a loss for what to say about that right now.
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EwingsGlass
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12/17/2005  1:13 AM
With regard to rotations to guard the 3, the biggest issue seems to be the big man stepping out when the guards get drawn into the paint. Channing doesn't rotate out of the paint. The players seem to congregate around the box, even if they are just watching the play and not pressing the ball. Despite that, they are still outrebounded with regularity.
“Speak softly and carry a big stick” - KAT
Knicksfan
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12/17/2005  1:21 AM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by Knicksfan:

"This one isn't so bad."

What?

Against a good team we would've lost by 30+. Thank God it was the Hawks, but its funny how even they are better than us. Right now we wouldn't even have a winning record in the NCAA. But who to blame? Players? Coach? GM? I don't know and I don't care anymore. This team isn't really worth thinking about. Pure quitters...

Shooting like that Atl would have beaten 95% of the league. I understand losing to the Hawks is pathetic. But if the stats are indication, the Knicks had a very good offensive game. No team shots 65% and loses. 75% 3 ptrs is unheard of. 33% is more likely. They shoot 33% from behind the arc, they lose by 10. This wasn't the Knicks worst out, I stand by my statement, this one wasn't so bad.

Don't you think that their great shooting was maybe a little bit related to the fact that we didn't play defense? Really, do you believe that every team just gets red hot from the field coincidentally the day they have to play the Knicks? This goes back to the Bucks loss, and the Magics' one too. This isn't just a "oh well they were shooting great today so we lost to the hotter team" game. We again failed to make an effort to defend the other team, and obviously if you left guys open or don't really try to disrupt his shot, the opposing team will score at will and at a great percentage. If the Knicks had defended and had left Atlanta at least on 45% shooting, they could've won the game. But these players don't seem to want to defend anymore, and that makes this one a terrible loss...
Knicks_Fan
crzymdups
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12/17/2005  1:58 AM
Posted by tomverve:

You're right crzy, 3 point shooting is hurting us this season on both ends of the court. It should be noted that we don't have great 3 point shooting personnel-- Q and JC were both volume shooters from 3 last year and both had pedestrian accuracies around 35%. But, of course shooting 35% from 3 is equivalent to shooting a little better than 50% on 2s, so even average 3 point shooting has its benefits. And on top of that there's all sorts of things about how it can spread a defense and help enable the post/driving/midrange game and so on.

On the flip side, we really don't have much from downtown. Q and JC are average in terms of accuracy and on top of that, both are notoriously streaky. Marbury can hit an occassional 3, but it's not a shot you'd want to design a play for. Frye would certainly be an intriguing possibility though, as many of his shot are only a foot or two inside the line anyway and he hits those at a great clip.

Interestingly, I checked Reggie Miller's 3PA during Brown's years with the Pacers and his attempts were actually comparable to his career averages, including two of his most prodigious seasons in terms of putting up the 3. So LB might not be so aversive to the 3 point shot if we had a true gunner from there. Still, I agree, we should definitely utilize the shot more than we do.

As for the D, I don't know what to say. We should be athletic enough to be able to make the rotations needed to defend perimeter Js reasonably well, and we have a coach who's known for preaching D. I'm at a loss for what to say about that right now.

I agree with the fact that we don't necessarily have the best shooters, but we do have guys who can do it from there. And as you say, it's far more valuable for Craw and Q to shoot 35% from 3 than 45% from inside the arc on mid-range jumpers. Shooting 3s stretches the D, and because the shot is worth more, a lower accuracy is acceptable. This team needs to stretch the D to help Curry and Frye in the post and to help Marbury drive.

Brown is notorious for disliking the three as an offensive weapon. I always remembered Miller and thought that was off. I don't have the resources to check out what the rest of the Pacers shot from downtown, but I remember Byron Scott killing us too. But as coach of the Sixers and the Pistons, his teams barely shot threes at all. With the Sixers you could say it was a personnel thing, but he went out of his way to ditch certain guys on his team who could shoot the three and import non-shooters like Lynch and Snow. With the Pistons, he clearly had the personnel and this year Flip Saunders, a smarter offensive coach, has the Pistons running the best offense in the league and taking 7 more three point shots per game.

I feel like I can visualize how this team should be playing and could be playing right now and that's what drives me nuts. I think Brown has a much different vision than me and I don't think his vision fits our current personnel. Our current personnel can win, you just have to be willing to swallow some - GASP - dribbling! and - GASP - three point shooting! as a coach. And Brown isn't able to. Our loss. Or should I say our repeated blow out loss?
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Stat Comparison For Knicks v. Hawks

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