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Turnovers Marbs fault? Look to Brown
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JohnWallace44
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12/16/2005  4:01 PM
Ok, so we've got one of the most skilled ball handlers in the game who is not turnover prone. But it his fault that we're passing the ball to the wrong team more than Dave Brown or Kent Graham ever did.

It couldn't be Brown's fault... oh but wait.. his mantra is to pass the ball all over the place even if you have the shot. That couldn't be it though, must be Marbs' fault.

If we had a normal coach who would let Steph run pick and rolls with Frye and Curry all day we'd have a winning record. That's all we did when KT was around, and these guys are better than that.

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BasketballJones
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12/16/2005  4:12 PM
Maybe it doesn't have to be anyone's fault. Maybe we have a bunch of players who have never played together before and a new coach with a new system.
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EwingsGlass
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12/16/2005  4:27 PM
On several occasions Marbs through the ball out of bounds. It could be the "receiver" of the pass that screwed up, but his passes haven't been sharp.
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gunsnewing
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12/16/2005  4:29 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:

On several occasions Marbs through the ball out of bounds. It could be the "receiver" of the pass that screwed up, but his passes haven't been sharp.


no they haven't. and the countless times Curry and Frye had position inside and Marbury passed it around the perimeter instead
martin
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12/16/2005  4:30 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Ok, so we've got one of the most skilled ball handlers in the game who is not turnover prone. But it his fault that we're passing the ball to the wrong team more than Dave Brown or Kent Graham ever did.

It couldn't be Brown's fault... oh but wait.. his mantra is to pass the ball all over the place even if you have the shot. That couldn't be it though, must be Marbs' fault.

If we had a normal coach who would let Steph run pick and rolls with Frye and Curry all day we'd have a winning record. That's all we did when KT was around, and these guys are better than that.

you are making some very heavy assumptions here. Coach would like ball movement, but that doesn't mean if you don't have the right shot you can't take it. He also wants his PG to recognize defenses and make good passes, which Marbury has not done. Have you been watching him feed the post? Poor.

And Marbury has thrown passes to guys who aren't looking. That's the PG responsibility. And he passes to guys when they are out of their comfort zone, again lack of PG recognition.

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EwingsGlass
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12/16/2005  4:33 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by EwingsGlass:

On several occasions Marbs through the ball out of bounds. It could be the "receiver" of the pass that screwed up, but his passes haven't been sharp.


no they haven't. and the countless times Curry and Frye had position inside and Marbury passed it around the perimeter instead

That's right. And that perimeter pass is usually to allow someone like Ariza to get the ball into Curry. I think we are in agreement that Marbs has had trouble creating the plays the way he should. Fans can blame Brown for the heartaches we have, but Marbs is not executing Brown's plays. Regardless of how good people think he is, he needs to execute the game plan. He had free reign in recent years and his numbers were better, but we weren't winning. Now, he has less control, worse numbers, and we are losing more. For me, I don't think he is executing plays and that is the problem.
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Bippity10
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12/16/2005  4:35 PM
The reason these guys have so many restrictioins is they simply can't play smart ball without them. None of them have won in the past when they had no restrictions so please enough of the nonsense. OUr guys need to learn how to play.

Again I ask the question: Why is it that Channing has had no problem adjusting to LB while guys like Nate, Steph and Craw have?

Answer: Frye has learned how to play and understands the message. The rest of the guys have never learned team ball and are flabbergasted when asked to play this way.

There is a reason why Detroit guys adjusted to Saunders on a whim. Not because Saunders is a great coach(hasn't won anything yet and has arguably underachieved) but because they learned how to play from LB and now will be able to adjust to any style. They understand how to play basketball. Our guys do not. Would we win more games if we let them loose? Of course. But that would have a ceiling. Which judging by our guys careers is about 35 wins. Learning to play bball the right wasy has no ceiling. Why do you give career losers the benefit of the doubt over LB?
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SlimPack
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12/16/2005  4:39 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

The reason these guys have so many restrictioins is they simply can't play smart ball without them. None of them have won in the past when they had no restrictions so please enough of the nonsense. OUr guys need to learn how to play.

Again I ask the question: Why is it that Channing has had no problem adjusting to LB while guys like Nate, Steph and Craw have?

Answer: Frye has learned how to play and understands the message. The rest of the guys have never learned team ball and are flabbergasted when asked to play this way.

There is a reason why Detroit guys adjusted to Saunders on a whim. Not because Saunders is a great coach(hasn't won anything yet and has arguably underachieved) but because they learned how to play from LB and now will be able to adjust to any style. They understand how to play basketball. Our guys do not. Would we win more games if we let them loose? Of course. But that would have a ceiling. Which judging by our guys careers is about 35 wins. Learning to play bball the right wasy has no ceiling. Why do you give career losers the benefit of the doubt over LB?

I totally agree, techincally the to's are browns fault but its for the greater good

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-16-2005 4:47 PM]
JohnWallace44
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12/17/2005  1:56 PM
all I'm saying is that Brown doesn't have to reinvent the wheel here. This team has looked good in the past with KT and Steph running pick and rolls, gettin all the attention, kicking it out to Houston or Craw or dumping it down to Sweetney...

Now we have a better pick and roll guy, Frye, an improved Craw and Q on the perimeter, and better post players. So why are we taking these players away from what has wored for them? They all look uncomfortable out there.

Here's the big point; if you say these things will all pay off in the end, how do you know these players will be around in a few weeks. If we don't play well IT is going to continue to shuffle the deck, so what's the point of Brown's far-sighted plans?

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McK1
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12/17/2005  2:37 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:



Here's the big point; if you say these things will all pay off in the end, how do you know these players will be around in a few weeks. If we don't play well IT is going to continue to shuffle the deck, so what's the point of Brown's far-sighted plans?

yes but now we will deal for players that fit the system instead of the empty "younger and more athletic" mantra
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knicksavvy
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12/18/2005  4:23 PM
This is the game of basketball!! Let the kids play and you will see wins.. We want Herb..To bad IT has committed to LB So I ask who will go first IT or LB?...
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Rich
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12/18/2005  6:54 PM
Steph hasn't been able to relax in this system. He's overthinking which leads to TOs. The problem is that it may not get better due to Larry's stubborness.
BigC
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12/18/2005  11:04 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Ok, so we've got one of the most skilled ball handlers in the game who is not turnover prone. But it his fault that we're passing the ball to the wrong team more than Dave Brown or Kent Graham ever did.

It couldn't be Brown's fault... oh but wait.. his mantra is to pass the ball all over the place even if you have the shot. That couldn't be it though, must be Marbs' fault.

If we had a normal coach who would let Steph run pick and rolls with Frye and Curry all day we'd have a winning record. That's all we did when KT was around, and these guys are better than that.


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nixluva
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12/19/2005  3:18 AM
The thing is this offense ran much better with Steph doing his thing. 97ppg last year and 92.8 this year. 20 assists per game last year and 17.6 this year. 45.1 FG% last year and 43.9 FG% this year.

What Steph used to do is make it easier for guys to score. Like Nazr. He fed off Steph like crazy last year and if he could catch the ball and not miss dunks, he would have had even more points. The same went for KT and guys like H2O, Ariza, Doleac, KVH etc. We didn't lose last year cuz we couldn't score, we lost cuz we didn't defend. Really all we needed was for the Defense to be improved. That along with filling the holes in the roster, which we did this off season would have made all the difference.

Now we have guys handling the ball more than they're used to and they aren't very good at it. For proof look at Steph's record. He's always been around 3 TO's a game, maybe a little less and that's where he is now. The whole team tho is turning it over at a much higher clip. Last year 13.9 TO's a game and this year 17.2. We have guys who aren't that good at creating their own shot and this leads to TO's. With Steph setting them up for easy buckets that would go away.

No one is saying that it has to be all one way. WE could still play the passing offense, but give Steph more possessions to drive and kick, which is his specialty. There's a way to do both. Why waste a players strongest talent. LB really hasn't done a good job of getting the best out of his players at all. I still believe he's the best thing for this team. To teach the kids the right way to play. However its not realistic to think we're gonna be able to get rid of every player he doesn't like, so at some point you have to adjust to the talent on your team.
OldFan
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12/20/2005  12:25 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

all I'm saying is that Brown doesn't have to reinvent the wheel here. This team has looked good in the past with KT and Steph running pick and rolls, gettin all the attention, kicking it out to Houston or Craw or dumping it down to Sweetney...

Now we have a better pick and roll guy, Frye, an improved Craw and Q on the perimeter, and better post players. So why are we taking these players away from what has wored for them? They all look uncomfortable out there.

Here's the big point; if you say these things will all pay off in the end, how do you know these players will be around in a few weeks. If we don't play well IT is going to continue to shuffle the deck, so what's the point of Brown's far-sighted plans?


IT hasn't worked for them.

The knicks were not a good team last year.

The team does not have the same players.

Brown has re-invented the wheel to the tune of 30 winning seasons in 33 years. What players to we have that have been consistent winners?
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Turnovers Marbs fault? Look to Brown
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