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I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does
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crzymdups
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12/12/2005  5:05 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yes Bonn, Isles has the habit of highlighted the parts he wants to hear. He completely ignored the next sentence, but thanks for getting the humor.

Actually the part I highlighted is one of Isiah's sirens calls, that has been echoed countless times on this board, about how there was nothing here when he got here, which is a complete fabrication. Just more garbage that is spouted to make Isiah look better. If you want to blame anybody for my taking that seriously, you can blame the people who've said the same thing and meant it.

You're right, he gave away Lampe and Vuja. Boy howdy, did that one make us look bad...

I completely agree with Bippity's post. Frye and Curry are the big men we would have prayed for in the draft over the last two years. Ariza, Nate and Lee were smart later picks. Jackie Butler was a great trash heap find. This team has acquired plenty of youth, in Curry it had to pay a cost, but REALLY, look at the draft next year, it's weak again.
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islesfan
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12/12/2005  5:09 PM
What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/12/2005  5:11 PM
Isles: Your inane Kool-aid accuasations do not work with me. If you've read my posts without searching for key sentences to tear apart and instead listened to what I'm writing you would understand I am far from a Isiah kool-aid drinker. As a matter of fact I have questioned all of his moves that have not resulted in the young guys but:

Here is the problem with NY fans. We want everything right now. The moment a change is made we want instant success. Unfortunately life don't work that way. I don't know if Isiah's plan will work but I also didn't think we were tearing apart that Eisleyspoon roster and coming out with better than a 6-13 record regardless of if it was this year or next year or 2 years from now. This is what I know:

1.) I have a potential rookie of the year
2.) I have a 22 year old center that can become a beast
3.) I have a 20 year old PF/C that is growing daily
4.) I have a stable of young guys that can be turned into first round draft picks at any point.
5.) He hired arguably the best coahc in the NBA

For this he should be fired? I've said it a million times. Stability is the key to titles. we have never had it in NY. We fire GM's and coach's the moment things waiver. WE give up on players after a year. We blast all our best players. This is why Ny has no success. It's not coincidence. For once see a plan through. IF Curry bombs I'm with you brother. If not, then someone was wrong. I'm just not willing to give up on Curry just yet(he would be graduating from college this year), which means I have to call for us to allow Isiah to see it through

Since I knew we were going to have a losing record at this point whether the Pg's name was Stephon or Howard I don't care what the rest of the roste rlooks like. I don't care about cap space. We are never getting under it.
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jaydh
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12/12/2005  5:11 PM
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.

we would have had to trade away all those draft pricks just to get rid of all those large, unwanted salaries... thereby leaving us with only caprrom, but no picks.
islesfan
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12/12/2005  5:14 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yes Bonn, Isles has the habit of highlighted the parts he wants to hear. He completely ignored the next sentence, but thanks for getting the humor.

Actually the part I highlighted is one of Isiah's sirens calls, that has been echoed countless times on this board, about how there was nothing here when he got here, which is a complete fabrication. Just more garbage that is spouted to make Isiah look better. If you want to blame anybody for my taking that seriously, you can blame the people who've said the same thing and meant it.

You're right, he gave away Lampe and Vuja. Boy howdy, did that one make us look bad...

I completely agree with Bippity's post. Frye and Curry are the big men we would have prayed for in the draft over the last two years. Ariza, Nate and Lee were smart later picks. Jackie Butler was a great trash heap find. This team has acquired plenty of youth, in Curry it had to pay a cost, but REALLY, look at the draft next year, it's weak again.

In a complete dismantling scenario, Frye could still have been our draft pick so you can't include him. Curry is such a huge risk where he could cost us 2 lottery picks. With his sloth like work ethic and heart problems Curry is no sure thing where you can say matter of factly that he's better than anything we could have drafted in those 2 drafts. Hell, at this point he's not doing much more than Sweetney if that.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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12/12/2005  5:19 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.

we would have had to trade away all those draft pricks just to get rid of all those large, unwanted salaries... thereby leaving us with only caprrom, but no picks.

That's bogus but let's say you're right, in that case you just let them expire. Unless you're dumber than Layden and actually trade them just to get rid of contracts that will expire eventually.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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12/12/2005  5:22 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.

we would have had to trade away all those draft pricks just to get rid of all those large, unwanted salaries... thereby leaving us with only caprrom, but no picks.

That's bogus but let's say you're right, in that case you just let them expire. Unless you're dumber than Layden and actually trade them just to get rid of contracts that will expire eventually.

if you would have wanted to wait for them just to expire, then we would still be waiting now, and for the next two yrs before they would even come off the books.

islesfan
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12/12/2005  5:23 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Isles: Your inane Kool-aid accuasations do not work with me. If you've read my posts without searching for key sentences to tear apart and instead listened to what I'm writing you would understand I am far from a Isiah kool-aid drinker. As a matter of fact I have questioned all of his moves that have not resulted in the young guys but:

I didn't mean to suggest that you were a Kool-Aid pitcher carrying member. I was just saying that that comment that I highlighted earlier is a common refrain from the Isiah worshippers. One that Isiah himself likes to spout on a regular basis.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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12/12/2005  5:26 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.

we would have had to trade away all those draft pricks just to get rid of all those large, unwanted salaries... thereby leaving us with only caprrom, but no picks.

That's bogus but let's say you're right, in that case you just let them expire. Unless you're dumber than Layden and actually trade them just to get rid of contracts that will expire eventually.

if you would have wanted to wait for them just to expire, then we would still be waiting now, and for the next two yrs before they would even come off the books.

All those players on the 2003-04 team had contracts that expired in 2008? I don't think so.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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12/12/2005  5:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.

we would have had to trade away all those draft pricks just to get rid of all those large, unwanted salaries... thereby leaving us with only caprrom, but no picks.

That's bogus but let's say you're right, in that case you just let them expire. Unless you're dumber than Layden and actually trade them just to get rid of contracts that will expire eventually.

if you would have wanted to wait for them just to expire, then we would still be waiting now, and for the next two yrs before they would even come off the books.

All those players on the 2003-04 team had contracts that expired in 2008? I don't think so.


we werent going to have the chance to be under the cap until Houstons contract came off the books, which is in the 2007/2008 season, so yea, i do think so.
Bippity10
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12/12/2005  5:34 PM
Isles: I think your correct in a lot of your points. I think rebuilding was the way to go for us, but I am also aware that there are more ways to win championships than rebuilding soley through the draft(see Detroit). So I can't destroy a guy for taking a root different than mine. To me the jury is still out. Zeke's legacy is not Marbury as the media want you to believe. That move was strictly to win while we had Allan. Zeke's legacy is Curry. If Curry pans out noone cares about draft picks. If Curry bombs than Zeke bombs. But as I look around the league most 22 year olds that are being built around are on losing teams and have a millioin flaws. Curry is just one of the pack.

I do want to say that there is a clear difference in effort level between high school guys and college grads. High school players like Curry who dominate 6-3 centers never learn to give full effort. They need a coach to beat it out of them. Curry has never had that. He was given a big contract before he was ever made too. Now he's playing for LB. In the past year I've seen Marbury dive for loose balls and Crawford drive to the basket. I'm just not ready to say Curry will not "get it" under LB. A lot of players have. What's up Rasheed!!! Guys like KG and Lebron have ruined it for everyone. Now we all think they should be stars by 22. Isles you're older, you should no better.
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Killa4luv
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12/12/2005  5:36 PM
Posted by islesfan:

What about me Killa? I don't get no love?

KT had good value. Dyess had a lot of value. All of our draft picks as a bad team had tremendous value. Vujanic and Lampe still had value, especially Lampe. The Knicks most definitely had pieces of value to dismantle the team and start from scratch.
Isles, you are doing a good job at being provacative and raising issues that posters here feel passionate about. For that I thank you, because you have created a very entertaining thread. I just happen not to agree with most of your posts, and think guys are doing an excellent job at refuting your arguments. You still deserve props for starting the thread though because its alot of fun to read.

Dice had no value, he was a former star who had blown his knee out twice? Once in preseason? His value was that of an expiring contract and nothing more, you are kidding yourself to say otherwise. KT had some value. Lampe and Vujanic were unknown quantities who still have done nothing. One of them is still in Europe. It is pointless to mention them, they are worthless.

FYI Curry could cost us 1 pick and a possible drop in draft position, not 2 picks.
Killa4luv
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12/12/2005  5:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Isles: I think your correct in a lot of your points. I think rebuilding was the way to go for us, but I am also aware that there are more ways to win championships than rebuilding soley through the draft(see Detroit).
I have been saying this forever. No team that has won a chip post MJ has had gone through a rebuild through years of draft picks. Some of them have drafted one key player, others have not drafted any. None of them have drafted all 2 of their best players.

there is more than one way to get it done.
BlueSeats
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12/12/2005  8:30 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

I have been saying this forever. No team that has won a chip post MJ has had gone through a rebuild through years of draft picks. Some of them have drafted one key player, others have not drafted any. None of them have drafted all 2 of their best players.

there is more than one way to get it done.

You're taking a needle in the haystack sort of exception to a rule and trying to apply it wholesale to whatever we may do.

And lets look at those post MJ teams who won. Houston drafted Hakeem, Lakers drafted Kobe, San Antonio drafted Robinson, Duncan, Parker and Manu.

Pistons rebuild MO was to first and foremost dump salary and build around inexpensive guys with an eye to the draft (high picks in Darko and Prince) and then under the cap free agency (they were under the cap the summer after wining the championship!)

So while it's true that Detroit won without major contributions from their draft guys they hardly represent a trend in the league and we are hardly following in their rebuild approach.
Killa4luv
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12/12/2005  8:49 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:

None of them have drafted both of their best players.

there is more than one way to get it done.

You're taking a needle in the haystack sort of exception to a rule and trying to apply it wholesale to whatever we may do.

And lets look at those post MJ teams who won. Houston drafted Hakeem, Lakers drafted Kobe, San Antonio drafted Robinson, Duncan, Parker and Manu.

Pistons rebuild MO was to first and foremost dump salary and build around inexpensive guys with an eye to the draft (high picks in Darko and Prince) and then under the cap free agency (they were under the cap the summer after wining the championship!)

So while it's true that Detroit won without major contributions from their draft guys they hardly represent a trend in the league and we are hardly following in their rebuild approach.
SA only got Duncan because D-rob was out an entire season. No team rebuilt solely through the draft was my point. SA actually did do it though, they just drafted exceptionally well regardless of draft position. They had a great international scout, but that secret is out now. SA is the exception because they were winning chips, and STILL drafting stars with the last pick in the first round. thats not what guys mean though, they mean drafting high for consecutive years to build a contender and no team has done that.

Aside from SA most teams have drafted 1 key player and traded or FA signed the other.

islesfan
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12/12/2005  9:02 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:

None of them have drafted both of their best players.

there is more than one way to get it done.

You're taking a needle in the haystack sort of exception to a rule and trying to apply it wholesale to whatever we may do.

And lets look at those post MJ teams who won. Houston drafted Hakeem, Lakers drafted Kobe, San Antonio drafted Robinson, Duncan, Parker and Manu.

Pistons rebuild MO was to first and foremost dump salary and build around inexpensive guys with an eye to the draft (high picks in Darko and Prince) and then under the cap free agency (they were under the cap the summer after wining the championship!)

So while it's true that Detroit won without major contributions from their draft guys they hardly represent a trend in the league and we are hardly following in their rebuild approach.
SA only got Duncan because D-rob was out an entire season. No team rebuilt solely through the draft was my point. SA actually did do it though, they just drafted exceptionally well regardless of draft position. They had a great international scout, but that secret is out now. SA is the exception because they were winning chips, and STILL drafting stars with the last pick in the first round. thats not what guys mean though, they mean drafting high for consecutive years to build a contender and no team has done that.

Aside from SA most teams have drafted 1 key player and traded or FA signed the other.

And who's talking about building solely through the draft??? I for one have been talking about getting under the cap in 2007 while having a young nucleus built mainly with lottery picks over a 4 year period prior to 2007 and also the MLE for young players with an upside instead of stiff's like Vin Baker and the Big Stiff.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
MX25
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12/12/2005  11:00 PM
Oct 05: Hahahaha. Amare is out for like 6 months. They lost Q,Nate and JJ for crap. The "MVP" gonna be exposed without Amare to save him

Dec 05: Huh? Suns? Who's that?

Got Hypocrites?
Allanfan20
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12/12/2005  11:44 PM
And who's talking about building solely through the draft??? I for one have been talking about getting under the cap in 2007 while having a young nucleus built mainly with lottery picks over a 4 year period prior to 2007 and also the MLE for young players with an upside instead of stiff's like Vin Baker and the Big Stiff.

Islesfan, in case you haven't noticed, we pretty much have a young nucleus with potential lottery picks and good draft picks. Curry, Crawford pretty much have lottery pick potential at this point (If they stayed in college) and we got Frye who just scored 30, Nate (Who I am liking more and more each day) and Butler. And instead of headed into 2007 under the cap, which is literally impossible to do here, we have some assets we can trade.

Yes, there were some points that made me say "OK, 1 more move like this, and Isiah is gone!", like Jerome James and Mo Taylor. But Taylor will come off the books next season, so you know he's not going to be around. We have the Artest rumors in full motion now, so who knows about that, as long as we don't give up say, Frye, Curry and Nate.

The way I see Islesfan, we have been rebuilding nicely and it's been very turbulent. Heck, we should be lucky it didn't get as ugly as Chicago, Golden State, LA Clippers (This season that is). But look at them now, and they didn't get good from free agency. They are getting good from the draft, making smarter trades and keeping the guys they needed to keep.

Again, I say, there is no way we are getting under the cap in the next 10 years. Flexibility is certainly a good thing for the salary cap by not adding the Jerome James and MoTs, but if you haven't looked, the guys we have are getting better and better. And heck, just ignore Stephon and pretend he's not on the team, b/c he's the guy that might not be here in 3 or 4 years anyway.

Isiah managed to scout and pick up Nate, Frye, Curry, Crawford, Ariza. All of them showing signs of real good potential to be a terrific nuclues. If you can't see that they aren't good or wont be good, then you just aren't paying attention. All this team needs is maybe a starting small foward, maybe a consistent shotblocker couldn't help (Oh geeze, I wanted Dan Gadz, and he looked great last night, but I guess James was more enticing) This nucleus with maybe 2 or so more additions is going to contend once it starts coming together.

We are in good shape. Just not for this season.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
tkf
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12/12/2005  11:53 PM
Posted by MX25:

Oct 05: Hahahaha. Amare is out for like 6 months. They lost Q,Nate and JJ for crap. The "MVP" gonna be exposed without Amare to save him

Dec 05: Huh? Suns? Who's that?

Got Hypocrites?


don't speak so soon, suns lost again tonight at home to the hornets.. two in a row, and they are turning the ball over a lot... lets not gloat..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SlimPack
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12/13/2005  12:21 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by MX25:

Oct 05: Hahahaha. Amare is out for like 6 months. They lost Q,Nate and JJ for crap. The "MVP" gonna be exposed without Amare to save him

Dec 05: Huh? Suns? Who's that?

Got Hypocrites?


don't speak so soon, suns lost again tonight at home to the hornets.. two in a row, and they are turning the ball over a lot... lets not gloat..

do you know what pisses me off? the fact that the hawks can beat the spurs, the hornets can beat the suns, but we cant even beat the freaking bucks. maybe islefan was right, and we are doomed. but i wont go there yet.
I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does

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