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I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does
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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  3:24 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

2 years ago I said Isiah was going to bring us to the depths of mediocrity for years to come and so far he's done nothing to dispute that. He continues to bring in flawed players at ridiculous costs in terms of draft picks and money that will sink us deeper and deeper in the abyss.

what did you expect him to do? he didnt have a lot to work with. the trade was made for steph when AH was still healthy, and we were trying to win now while Houston's knees were still good. isiah has a plan(thats kinda dumb to say a GM doesnt have a plan since thats their job), its ok if you dont see it, but it seems like you just hate isiah no matter what he does(and your view of him just reinforces that).

I expected him to tear it down and build it back up with lottery picks and cap room starting next year. We've been through 3 crap years already so what would have been the difference in terms of wins and losses? Of course he had assets to work with. He had every #1 pick, expiring contracts and Dolan's checkbook to take back as many bad contracts as possible as long as they end sooner rather than later the way he did. God forbid he should plan for the future instead of sacrificing everything he has for the present. And by future I mean top draft picks that you can build a franchise around and not flawed players who were drafted late or not at all but given burn because we have nothing else.

okay, say we didn't make the Marbury trade in '04. Assuming we got around the 6th pick in the lotto or so, who would you have taken? that was a weak draft after the top two picks.

The team was 14-21 before the Marbury trade. We probably would have had closer to the 10th pick. We were not bad enough to get a star player in that draft had we not done the Marbury trade. We probably would have gotten a nice role player with far less talent and promise than Frye or Curry.

That's all I'm saying Bonn. Some of these guys seem to think with two number 8,9, 10 picks we were going to end up with Lebron James and then be able to dump Eisley and Spoons contracts on other teams for lottery picks. I will re-iterate we had two choices:

1.) Gamble on players like we have, while building up a group of young and TRADEABLE assets that really can be traded for draft picks or turn into stars. Get rid of the misery and bring in a big coach that can draw big name players. Of course this leaves you with question marks, questionable players and rejects.

2.) Or we could have waited until after 2007 when we were under the cap, watch 4 more years of the most godawful boring basketball on the planet. Have 4, 5, 6 years of mediocre drafts and then try to entice a coach and free-agent to come to a team that has been surrounded in misery, has no future and has been ridiculed for 6 years. And then at that point begin the re-building process.

Either way it would have been miserable and either way Isles would have been angry. The grass is always greener
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Bippity10
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12/12/2005  3:27 PM
People keep comparing us to the bulls but the situations are so different. paxson game in with a young squad. Zeke came into a team of veterans that needed to be exterminated. The situations were entirely different and therefore the paths taken must be different as well. It's almsot like comparing frye(a jumpshooter) to SAR(a slasher). Doesn't make any sense.
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tkf
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12/12/2005  3:28 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

How are SAR and Frye's game anything alike? I guess I'm missing the comparison.

You can draft for 15 years and just come away with complimentary players. There are no guarntees anywhere. Chicago rebuilt for what 6 years? And they still aren't an elite team. And who is the star they are building around? They have a team of "complimentary players". Atlanta, the Clips. There are no guarantees to going into the lottery. All you are doing is what we are doing, going after young players and crossing your fingers.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 1:23 PM]

chicago is not an example of teams drafting to no avail

If dumb ass Krause doesn't trade away Brand and Artest they have 2 of the top 10 players in the league right now. No telling where that team might've been.

Think about the length of time it has taken them. Think about the amount of picks they have used and had to dump. They are just starting to see progress now. Jordan retired from them in 1999. It is soon to be 2006 and they still aren't championship caliber. Do you think fans here would be willing to wait from 2004 until 2010 to still be a mediocre team with some upside? No guys like Isles would still be calling for the GM's head, just for different reasons............as for Brand and ARtest you can't make the right choices all the time. That's why rebuilding is so tough. They all make the same mistakes

the Paxson regime:

Paxson after his first season dumping Crawford and penciling in Gordon as the designated trigger at guard resulted in a 24 game improvement. So far they are 10-9 w/o Curry, which is a much better start than they had last-season. Thing is thanks to trading Curry, they have 20 mill in capspace this coming summer and a lot of young growing talent to entice free-agents over the next 2 years to come play there with. Plus they have 2 firsts next year to keep adding talent or dangle as trade bait.

Krause's 4 years of mismanagement totally reversed in 1 1/2.



[Edited by - McK1 on 12-12-2005 1:54 PM]

How many people here would prefer to be in that situation with young talent, cap space and another team's potential lottery picks the next 2 seasons? I sure as hell would.

Again Isles you are missing the point of our posts. We all would want that. But rebuilding the draft is not a guarantee of that. And secondly it's taken Chicago 7 years of successes and failures to get to this point And there are still 10-9 with no guarantee that those lottery picks will turn into anything other than Kwame Brown. The grass is always greener.

Again revisionist history. For us to rebuild through the draft we would have had to sit through 2 more years of Shanvis Eisleyspoon. Then try to entice a star to come into a complete rebuilding situation as a free agent(happens all the time huh) and then sit through at least 3 to 4 years of draft picks. No matter how much dumping we did we were still going to be over the cap and noone was taking the contracts of Eisley and Spoon without giving us crap in return. and that crap was either going to be salary or years. Either way we went were going to end up with a similar roster.

The only difference would be one team would have Curry. And the other would have a couple draft picks hoping to draft a player like him.


excellent point bip: I couldn't have put it any better. And just look at the Hawks, I wonder how well their rebuilding is going? And really using chicago as a model of excellence is far fetched, that team traded Brand for a pick which turned into chandler, they drafted curry, they traded artest and Brad miller, and now curry is gone, and chander is overpaid and mediocre. Yea I would love to be in their shoes.. Anyway that is not the point, You made your argument very clear and I agree..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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12/12/2005  3:40 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bippity10:

Allanfan: Pipe it young in. You were correct on the Ewing deals. We all know that's when rebuilding should have started. But it didn't. But that is not Isiah, or lB's fault(it may be Marbury's though)

I'm talking about the deals we've made in the last two years. If we stood pat and just drafted like everyone said we would have to have batted 1000 to come up with a roster with upside like we have today.


Absolutely. Thank you. The funny thing is, Isles thinks Layden did a great job.
That's a great post by Bip! I wish he posted here more. He's one of if not the most knowledgable poster (after me of course! ) and has great first hand experience and knowledge about coaching.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-12-2005 3:40 PM]
Bippity10
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12/12/2005  3:43 PM
I think Allanfan is angry because I called him young in.
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islesfan
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12/12/2005  4:15 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bippity10:

Allanfan: Pipe it young in. You were correct on the Ewing deals. We all know that's when rebuilding should have started. But it didn't. But that is not Isiah, or lB's fault(it may be Marbury's though)

I'm talking about the deals we've made in the last two years. If we stood pat and just drafted like everyone said we would have to have batted 1000 to come up with a roster with upside like we have today.


Absolutely. Thank you. The funny thing is, Isles thinks Layden did a great job.

1. That's a lie so stop pretending that I think that.

2. What does Layden have to do with this? He deserved to be fired sooner than he was. So that absolves Isiah from making mistakes just as heinous?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BlueSeats
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12/12/2005  4:16 PM
Good debate.

I've been a big advocate of a traditional rebuild myself. All I can say is that guys like Ariza, Sweets, Frye, Lee and Nate are what gives me hope and passion for this team. If all we had were Steph, Malik, Mo, AD, etc, I probably would be a Nets fan by now.

Guys like Craw, Q, and Curry lie somewhere in between. Each entailed a risk and are probably overpaid, but nowhere near unmovable.

but it's just my taste to prefer to get good kids, and homegrow 'em through your own good system, and use your resources for trying to find the next franchise player - the next guy who's shirt is gonna hang in the rafters. There is no one right way to do it, but I'd put my odds on good drafting with high picks, good under the cap free agency, and trying to stock the bench with good value contracts we can move on a dime.

i think isiah is doing a 'good' job on the dual track approach of getting younger while trying to make the playoffs, but i think it's a one foot on the train, one on the platform approach that almost necessitates low draft picks, MLE free agency, and overpaid trades. Who knows, he may get lucky and hit a home run, or he might strike out.

But I'd rather if, like some other rebuilding teams, if he strikes out we get compensated with high draft picks and significant free agency, rather than again having to wait out unmovable contracts and wondering who will be the next casdtoff we can net with an expiring contract. You want another Frye on this team, or you want another Mo?
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12/12/2005  4:19 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Good debate.

and speaking of good debates...

a friend of mine was on the debate team in high school. they had a huge regional debate in boston. they dubbed it the "mass debate" - now people, THAT'S a good debate. and one where everyone wins.

Bippity10
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12/12/2005  4:21 PM
Noone is absolving Isiah of anything. But I'm also not blaming him for anything when we are two years removed from the worst roster ever. HOw do you think Isiah was going ot change that roster into anything with more upside than the current one? Draft picks aren't anymore guarnatees than the players we have. Did you not look at the 2004 draft that was posted? Who out of that is a guaranteed star. 1, 2 maybe 3 players. You'd be looking at the same question mark players, we'd still be over the cap but instead of watching Eddie Curry in the middle you'd be watching Spoon eat basketballs. There were no guarantees either way. I too would have preferred your direction. It was the way to go. But Isiah is two years in. That roster was horrible. What type of draft picks were you expecting to get for Shanvis Eisleyspoon. How were we hoarding picks? If Isiah comes up with more draft picks at this draft are we still biotching? Do we change the argument? Without a top 3 pick who are we getting in any of the past three drafts better than Frye or Curry? The grass is always greener.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 4:24 PM]
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tkf
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12/12/2005  4:23 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Good debate.

I've been a big advocate of a traditional rebuild myself. All I can say is that guys like Ariza, Sweets, Frye, Lee and Nate are what gives me hope and passion for this team. If all we had were Steph, Malik, Mo, AD, etc, I probably would be a Nets fan by now.

Guys like Craw, Q, and Curry lie somewhere in between. Each entailed a risk and are probably overpaid, but nowhere near unmovable.

but it's just my taste to prefer to get good kids, and homegrow 'em through your own good system, and use your resources for trying to find the next franchise player - the next guy who's shirt is gonna hang in the rafters. There is no one right way to do it, but I'd put my odds on good drafting with high picks, good under the cap free agency, and trying to stock the bench with good value contracts we can move on a dime.

i think isiah is doing a 'good' job on the dual track approach of getting younger while trying to make the playoffs, but i think it's a one foot on the train, one on the platform approach that almost necessitates low draft picks, MLE free agency, and overpaid trades. Who knows, he may get lucky and hit a home run, or he might strike out.

But I'd rather if, like some other rebuilding teams, if he strikes out we get compensated with high draft picks and significant free agency, rather than again having to wait out unmovable contracts and wondering who will be the next casdtoff we can net with an expiring contract. You want another Frye on this team, or you want another Mo?

but i think it's a one foot on the train, one on the platform

hahahha, I just thought about that blue, and that is one hell of a position to be in.... I do agree with your post, but I do like craw and curry and feel you can add them to the group of home grown guys we have. I think these guys are very coachable. Q I think the jury is still out on him for the longterm...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
islesfan
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12/12/2005  4:25 PM
Posted by Bippity10:


That's all I'm saying Bonn. Some of these guys seem to think with two number 8,9, 10 picks we were going to end up with Lebron James and then be able to dump Eisley and Spoons contracts on other teams for lottery picks. I will re-iterate we had two choices:

1.) Gamble on players like we have, while building up a group of young and TRADEABLE assets that really can be traded for draft picks or turn into stars. Get rid of the misery and bring in a big coach that can draw big name players. Of course this leaves you with question marks, questionable players and rejects.

2.) Or we could have waited until after 2007 when we were under the cap, watch 4 more years of the most godawful boring basketball on the planet. Have 4, 5, 6 years of mediocre drafts and then try to entice a coach and free-agent to come to a team that has been surrounded in misery, has no future and has been ridiculed for 6 years. And then at that point begin the re-building process.

Either way it would have been miserable and either way Isles would have been angry. The grass is always greener

I love how in your two choices you had us "building up a group of young and TRADEABLE assets that really can be traded for draft picks or turn into stars" in the "Good" scenario but our drafts would have been 4-6 years of only mediocre drafts because I guess drafting in the lottery for that long only produces mediocre drafts.

How about for a 3rd scenario where you dump salary with the intent of being under the cap after Houston's contract comes off the books, keep all of your lottery picks and using them wisely so that you have a nice young nucleus for when you can sign top free agents. That would have taken 4 years where right now we're 2 years into Isiah's reign of error and people are still saying that they need 2-3 more years to evaluate it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BlueSeats
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12/12/2005  4:30 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Good debate.

I've been a big advocate of a traditional rebuild myself. All I can say is that guys like Ariza, Sweets, Frye, Lee and Nate are what gives me hope and passion for this team. If all we had were Steph, Malik, Mo, AD, etc, I probably would be a Nets fan by now.

Guys like Craw, Q, and Curry lie somewhere in between. Each entailed a risk and are probably overpaid, but nowhere near unmovable.

but it's just my taste to prefer to get good kids, and homegrow 'em through your own good system, and use your resources for trying to find the next franchise player - the next guy who's shirt is gonna hang in the rafters. There is no one right way to do it, but I'd put my odds on good drafting with high picks, good under the cap free agency, and trying to stock the bench with good value contracts we can move on a dime.

i think isiah is doing a 'good' job on the dual track approach of getting younger while trying to make the playoffs, but i think it's a one foot on the train, one on the platform approach that almost necessitates low draft picks, MLE free agency, and overpaid trades. Who knows, he may get lucky and hit a home run, or he might strike out.

But I'd rather if, like some other rebuilding teams, if he strikes out we get compensated with high draft picks and significant free agency, rather than again having to wait out unmovable contracts and wondering who will be the next casdtoff we can net with an expiring contract. You want another Frye on this team, or you want another Mo?

but i think it's a one foot on the train, one on the platform

hahahha, I just thought about that blue, and that is one hell of a position to be in.... I do agree with your post, but I do like craw and curry and feel you can add them to the group of home grown guys we have. I think these guys are very coachable. Q I think the jury is still out on him for the longterm...

Thanks TKF, and I do agree with you on JC and Curry. They aren't guys I love, but they are the kinds of talent/contract/youth ratio I'm happy to take a chance on. I'm just not into the really expensive "potential" guys, which Mo and Steph have become for me.

Q scares me though. it's looking like his back might be a real long term problem. So glad we at least got Nate in the deal.
Bippity10
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12/12/2005  4:31 PM
I will defend anyone that says rebuilding was the way to go. I agree with you. That's the way I would have gone. But it's far too early to say Zeke is a failure. If Curry "gets it" we are all singing his praises. Curry could "get it" tomorrow or he could die tomorrow. It's far too early to tell. It's like calling for LB's head 19 games into his regime. Layden's roster was MISERABLE. There wasn't one tradeable asset. How we got rid of it to begin with was a miracle in itself. Yes there were mistakes made. It would be impossible to tear that team apart without one.Yes we had to change directions, but that's what happens when your best player is forced to retire. These are the things that happen when you rebuild. For Chicago to get to where they are they changed directions at least 3 times. That's rebuilding. And if Deng and Chandler don't pan out and the draft picks are more role players, guess what? They will level out and be forced to start again. That's rebuilding. That's what we are going through.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 4:32 PM]
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islesfan
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12/12/2005  4:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I will defend anyone that says rebuilding was the way to go. I agree with you. That's the way I would have gone. But it's far too early to say Zeke is a failure. If Curry "gets it" we are all singing his praises. Curry could "get it" tomorrow or he could die tomorrow. It's far too early to tell. It's like calling for LB's head 19 games into his regime. Layden's roster was MISERABLE. There wasn't one tradeable asset. How we got rid of it to begin with was a miracle in itself. Yes there were mistakes made. It would be impossible to tear that team apart without one.Yes we had to change directions, but that's what happens when your best player is forced to retire. These are the things that happen when you rebuild. For Chicago to get to where they are they changed directions at least 3 times. That's rebuilding. And if Deng and Chandler don't pan out and the draft picks are more role players, guess what? They will level out and be forced to start again. That's rebuilding. That's what we are going through.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 4:32 PM]

So how did they trade for Marbury? I guess you don't think that potential lottery picks are tradeable. Actually the miracle was that the Suns found somebody stupid enough to give them all that for Marbury and Penny.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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12/12/2005  4:41 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bippity10:

Allanfan: Pipe it young in. You were correct on the Ewing deals. We all know that's when rebuilding should have started. But it didn't. But that is not Isiah, or lB's fault(it may be Marbury's though)

I'm talking about the deals we've made in the last two years. If we stood pat and just drafted like everyone said we would have to have batted 1000 to come up with a roster with upside like we have today.


Absolutely. Thank you. The funny thing is, Isles thinks Layden did a great job.

1. That's a lie so stop pretending that I think that.

2. What does Layden have to do with this? He deserved to be fired sooner than he was. So that absolves Isiah from making mistakes just as heinous?

Sorry, for some reason I thought you had said before that you prefered Layden.
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Bonn1997
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12/12/2005  4:44 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

I will defend anyone that says rebuilding was the way to go. I agree with you. That's the way I would have gone. But it's far too early to say Zeke is a failure. If Curry "gets it" we are all singing his praises. Curry could "get it" tomorrow or he could die tomorrow. It's far too early to tell. It's like calling for LB's head 19 games into his regime. Layden's roster was MISERABLE. There wasn't one tradeable asset. How we got rid of it to begin with was a miracle in itself. Yes there were mistakes made. It would be impossible to tear that team apart without one.Yes we had to change directions, but that's what happens when your best player is forced to retire. These are the things that happen when you rebuild. For Chicago to get to where they are they changed directions at least 3 times. That's rebuilding. And if Deng and Chandler don't pan out and the draft picks are more role players, guess what? They will level out and be forced to start again. That's rebuilding. That's what we are going through.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-12-2005 4:32 PM]

So how did they trade for Marbury? I guess you don't think that potential lottery picks are tradeable. Actually the miracle was that the Suns found somebody stupid enough to give them all that for Marbury and Penny.

Are you joking or serious? I'm sure Bip was just exaggerating
Bippity10
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12/12/2005  4:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:


That's all I'm saying Bonn. Some of these guys seem to think with two number 8,9, 10 picks we were going to end up with Lebron James and then be able to dump Eisley and Spoons contracts on other teams for lottery picks. I will re-iterate we had two choices:

1.) Gamble on players like we have, while building up a group of young and TRADEABLE assets that really can be traded for draft picks or turn into stars. Get rid of the misery and bring in a big coach that can draw big name players. Of course this leaves you with question marks, questionable players and rejects.

2.) Or we could have waited until after 2007 when we were under the cap, watch 4 more years of the most godawful boring basketball on the planet. Have 4, 5, 6 years of mediocre drafts and then try to entice a coach and free-agent to come to a team that has been surrounded in misery, has no future and has been ridiculed for 6 years. And then at that point begin the re-building process.

Either way it would have been miserable and either way Isles would have been angry. The grass is always greener

I love how in your two choices you had us "building up a group of young and TRADEABLE assets that really can be traded for draft picks or turn into stars" in the "Good" scenario but our drafts would have been 4-6 years of only mediocre drafts because I guess drafting in the lottery for that long only produces mediocre drafts.

How about for a 3rd scenario where you dump salary with the intent of being under the cap after Houston's contract comes off the books, keep all of your lottery picks and using them wisely so that you have a nice young nucleus for when you can sign top free agents. That would have taken 4 years where right now we're 2 years into Isiah's reign of error and people are still saying that they need 2-3 more years to evaluate it.

Isles again both scenario's are filled with question marks and scenario 3 still has no guarantees. Waiting out the contracts would have left us with two with a Frye type player last year and a number 10 pickish in 2004. Would that number 10 have been as good as Curry or have as much upside at age 22. Who knows? Just because you and I prefer this method doesn't mean it has no question marks and is guaranteed success anymore than hoping Curry develops does. You seem to think it is a definite path for success. Now my question is, you fire Isiah today, Curry turns into a beast do you then call for his rehire?

In your scenario we have two lottery picks at this point. If we are lucky they turn out to be as good as frye and Curry. Our roster is still Eisley, frank, Spoon, Shandon and any of the other bumbs not retired. We are still over the cap for another year, but thankfully we would still have our first round pick this year. Maybe that turns into a superstar/the savior knick fans have been seeing on everyone else's teams and maybe it's a bumb. Then we have to wait until the next year, and then the next year. There are no guarantees in building through the draft.

There is a difference between wanting something to happen and saying that anyway but my way is wrong. I agree with you. Open your eyes. I agree with you as to what the best course of action is. But the reality is that we have a young team with upside which is exactly what we would have hoped for in the draft. So why would we fire a guy based on that 2 years into his regime when more changes are obviously on the horizon. Do you think Penny, Antonio's contracts and all the young guys will be here come draft time. Is there a chance there contracts could be turned into better players or picks? I don't know, maybee. Too soon to tell. But there is as many questions around that as there is around drafting Bynum or Gay or anybody else.

It all comes down to Curry. Marbury was traded for to work with Houston. That was derailed so we have retoooled. Now the team is built around Curry who has as much upside as anyone you are getting in your magical draft. If he fails it was a bad trade. But if this guy turns into a beast what did we fire Isiah for.
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12/12/2005  4:49 PM
Yes Bonn, Isles has the habit of highlighted the parts he wants to hear. He completely ignored the next sentence, but thanks for getting the humor.
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islesfan
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12/12/2005  4:59 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Yes Bonn, Isles has the habit of highlighted the parts he wants to hear. He completely ignored the next sentence, but thanks for getting the humor.

Actually the part I highlighted is one of Isiah's sirens calls, that has been echoed countless times on this board, about how there was nothing here when he got here, which is a complete fabrication. Just more garbage that is spouted to make Isiah look better. If you want to blame anybody for my taking that seriously, you can blame the people who've said the same thing and meant it.
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12/12/2005  5:02 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Yes Bonn, Isles has the habit of highlighted the parts he wants to hear. He completely ignored the next sentence, but thanks for getting the humor.

Actually the part I highlighted is one of Isiah's sirens calls, that has been echoed countless times on this board, about how there was nothing here when he got here, which is a complete fabrication. Just more garbage that is spouted to make Isiah look better. If you want to blame anybody for my taking that seriously, you can blame the people who've said the same thing and meant it.
Well isles, was there anything of value when Isiah arrived? I mean really, do you think teams wanted any of those players?

BTW
This thread is freaking classic!!! Bippity, Crzydumps and others are making great points.
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I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does
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